masthead.jpg

switchconcepts.com, U3dpdGNo-a25, DIRECT rubiconproject.com, 14766, RESELLER pubmatic.com, 30666, RESELLER, 5d62403b186f2ace appnexus.com, 1117, RESELLER thetradedesk.com, switchconcepts, RESELLER taboola.com, switchconceptopenrtb, RESELLER bidswitch.com, switchconcepts, RESELLER contextweb.com, 560031, RESELLER amazon-adsystem.com, 3160, RESELLER crimtan.com, switch, RESELLER quantcast.com, switchconcepts , RESELLER rhythmone.com, 1934627955, RESELLER ssphwy.com, switchconcepts, RESELLER emxdgt.com, 59, RESELLER appnexus.com, 1356, RESELLER sovrn.com, 96786, RESELLER, fafdf38b16bf6b2b indexexchange.com, 180008, RESELLER nativeads.com, 52853, RESELLER theagency.com, 1058, RESELLER google.com, pub-3515913239267445, DIRECT, f08c47fec0942fa0
February 22, 2012

Some Historical Recruiting Comparisions

Filed under: Football — Reed @ 4:54 pm

Since this recruiting topic is generating many and good discussions I decided to do some basic research and lay out the two football programs, PITT and Wisconsin, side by side in recruiting and records.

I looked at Scouts.com team recruiting rankings for the last seven years, from 2012 back to 2005, and also compared those rankings to team results.

The answers may or may not surprise you but they are enlightening. (Sorry that I couldn’t make the table better – I tried for an hour)

YEAR      PITT     WISKY 

RANKING & W/L

’12        40th      62th

’11        47th      38th

W/L      6/7        11/2

’10        17th      33rd

W/L      8/5        11/2

’09        31st      51st

W/L      10/3      10/3

’08        25th      26th

W/L      9/4        7/6

’07        8th       41st

W/L      5-7        9/4

’06        11th      37th

W/L      6/6        12/1

I also did a quick check with Rivals and in the seven year period we had this:

PITT was ranked in the Top 50 (all they show) six times; 47th, 33rd, 47th, 28th, 26th, 21st.

Wisconsin was in the Top 50 three times; 41st, 34th, 40th.

ESPN was far more stingy all around. PITT was in their Top 25 three times; 21st, 19th, 16th and Wisconsin didn’t make the cut at all.

It shakes out the same really – According to star rankings, PITT far our recruited Wisconsin over that seven year time period but didn’t produce the quality football play that Wisconsin did with lesser recruiting classes.

1) PITT beat Wisconsin in recruiting ranking six out of seven years with average rankings being 18th for PITT and 41st for Wisconsin.

2) Even with that clear lead in recruiting PITT was greatly trounced in the W/L record by records of 60/18 for Wisconsin and 45/32 for PITT. Wisconsin went to seven straight bowl games in that period with two BCS games in the Rose Bowls.

3) PITT only had one year where their W/L record was better than Wisconsin’s – 2008 by 9/4 to 7/6.

4) The final AP Top 25 rankings had Wisconsin in it five times over those seven years with finishes as follows: 10th, 7th, 16th, 24th, 7th. PITT was in it one time with a 15th ranking in 2009.

So, what does this mean?

That Wisconsin, with Chryst,  Huxtable and Rudolph on staff, was way more adept at getting results out of their recruiting than PITT has been, even if Wisconsin’s were average classes. Chryst has said previously that it is important to get players who “fit in” and contribute. His saying that they will adapt the style of football to accommodate the talent wasn’t referring to one or two players but to who they had recruited in the preceding years.

I believe the staff at Wisconsin did that by targeting players they wanted rather than the ones with the most stars or hype. Something obviously worked in that regard there because they far out produced PITT on the field of play and in a much stronger conference than the Big East.

Our new staff is going to follow the recruiting template that made Wisconsin so very successful the years they were coaches there. To not do so would be foolish. We don’t need Chryst & Co. running around frantically slobbering over every recruit named in a blog or a list somewhere.  I think Chryst’s’ latest press conference supports this.

We need them to keep targeting the players they truly want and then to go out and get them.

 





Reed…..

I’ll have my Beef on the rocks because I’m relaxing.. Not because I have to!!

Thanks for the perspective!!

Comment by CompLit 02.22.12 @ 5:10 pm

I just figured out we can put colors in these posts. I used Coast Guard Blue.

I think we all should relax a bit when it comes to PITT football for 2012. Granted that we are the most snake bitten program in America over the last few years but I’ve a feeling we’ll see some stability now and that slowly our blood pressures will go down on game day.

Comment by Reed 02.22.12 @ 5:19 pm

Two things may be influencing this comparison – 1)the Big10/12 is totally over-rated and (aside from OSU in recent years) is not that good of a conference, thus Wisconsin could nearly run the table; and 2) Wisconsin’s non-con schedule might be a bit easier than Pitt’s in the past.

Not to excuse, in any way, Pitt’s complete failure to win against weak competition in the recent past…

Comment by Patrick 02.22.12 @ 5:24 pm

Reed, good post. Fix up 2009, PITT was 10-3.
You know….that was our first 10 win season since the Marino days (1981-82 I believe). Don’t want to miss that.

Wisconsin’s program got better, just as all these plethora of bowl games and such came about. Because for the longest time, it was the Big 2 (osu & mich. ) and the little 8. Unless you go way back to pre-1968.

Basically with the addition of 2 more Big 10 New Year’s Bowl Games (Capital One & Outback), they needed more than just OSU & Mich. Since they were in play for the Rose Bowl and one other big bowl. Wallah…..
Wisconsin became a power. Penn State also helped out for these “other” two New Year’s day big 10 bowl games.

Comment by Emel 02.22.12 @ 5:52 pm

Interesting take, much like Dokish piece about Pitt getting more blue chippers than the Badgers. So they did a lot better with less. Wisconson also seemed to do a lot recruiting in western PA. I wonder how well these guys will ultimatelty do being an area with more good prospects.

Comment by Justinian 02.22.12 @ 5:59 pm

Justinian – if you look at Wisky’s recruiting over the years you’ll be surprised at how nationally they recruited…

in 2012 they had 4 local players (WI, IN, IL, MN) out of 12 recruits; in 2011 it was 11 of 21 and in 2010 it was 11 of 26; in 2009 it was 9 of 21 recruits.

What jumped out at me was the number of kids from FL, CA, WA, TX, PA (pgh!) on their recruiting rosters so I’m not sure that their geographical area really matters that much in their recruiting efforts.

I think that they really did target kids all over the country that they really wanted and pushed to get them specifically.

That said, perhaps they will benefit from WPA/PA talent but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if, when the dust settles next LOI Day, there are many more out of state kids than there are local ones in the 2013 class.

Comment by Reed 02.22.12 @ 6:15 pm

Thanks Reed great info. I for one am optimistic about Chryst and will gladly give him time to do things his way!!!

Comment by giveitarest 02.22.12 @ 6:17 pm

Chryst and the other coaches on Wisky’s offensive staff basically took “3-star” talent and turned them into what you’d expect an offense mostly “4-stars” with a sprinkle of “5-stars” to produce. These guys know how to get the players they want and get great production out of them.

Comment by deepelemblues 02.22.12 @ 7:04 pm

Reed, That’s all the better if they can recruit a little better nationally. I was surprised how many western PA kids Wisconsin recruited. At least now they will be closer to a larger pool of recruites. Florida and Texas aside, there part of the country, PA and Ohio have a very good level of football and the area still produces a lot of good players.

Comment by Justinian 02.22.12 @ 7:21 pm

Just – Wisky hit up Ohio in recruiting very well also so hopefully the new staff will have ties in the area. They had a bigger presence in FL than I would have thought.

Comment by Reed 02.22.12 @ 7:30 pm

Great post. I hope all the fuss over recruitibg will die down

Comment by Pk 02.22.12 @ 8:23 pm

Btw, what the heck has happened to the Pitt women’s basketball program. They have been just awful like 2 years or more running. They are 0-14 in the BigEast this year. It might be time for Agnus to think about her life’s work.

Comment by Emel 02.22.12 @ 8:25 pm

They lost like 87-37 last night at home. Just pathetic.

Comment by Emel 02.22.12 @ 8:26 pm

Congrats to wrestling team, as they won the ECL.
Perhaps we should field a women’s wrestling team. haha 🙂

Comment by Emel 02.22.12 @ 8:28 pm

WVU loses at ND by 27 after trailing by 2 at the half. 71 to 44

Comment by JP 02.22.12 @ 8:46 pm

Folks …Chryst is our coach and we are his fans.
Get over it…enough already.

Comment by Dan 72 02.22.12 @ 9:31 pm

Thanks, Reed, for the thought provoking analysis. I’ve always thought of college football as three basic functions:

Recruiting

Player development (teaching fundamentals)

Game day play calling (X’s & O’s, clock management, adjustments, etc.)

Over the years I’ve thought Pitt had excellent recruiting, as evidenced not only by the number of players drafted but the number of All-pros. I think player development was lacking in key areas (like pass defense). I thought game day coaching was laughable.

Comment by 66Goat 02.22.12 @ 10:22 pm

Reed For God’s sake, the reason PITT didn’t produce in those years is because of the long trek to Heinz field. If they had rebuilt old Pitt Stadium those recruiting classes would have produced.

Wisky has in their stadium on campus since 1917!! Which is why they won more games. Their students could come out to support the team better.

Next thing you are going to blog about is that X’s & O’s matter to the success of a football program.

Sheeeeeeeshhhh!! Don’t you know it is all about recruiting!!

Comment by Tom Mc in Sql Hill 02.22.12 @ 10:51 pm

Reed, thanks for a little sanity on this recruiting nonsense. Unfortunately most of the people that are all worked up about it will simply disregard it and continue with their ranting.

Comment by John In South Carolina 02.22.12 @ 11:08 pm

I feel better about football next year than basketball. Looks like Temple is joining for next season. Pittsburgh media hasn’t yet picked up story.

Comment by Tonyinhouston 02.22.12 @ 11:19 pm

Correction: Cardiac Hill has a banner up about Temple.

Comment by Tonyinhouston 02.22.12 @ 11:20 pm

Reed..the reason we are the most snake bit program over the last few years is because we keep playing with snakes!
As for recruiting, let me give the perspective that only age can bring.
When I see young girls, I think to myself how pretty they are. I don’t know them so I base my opinion on just what I see. But when I think back to high school, I realize we had girls who were very pretty…but, for one reason or another, they weren’t popular and thus were not perceived to be attractive.
A dear friend of mine who coaches a highly successful high school team in Columbus told me he liked Wanny because Wanny judged talent himself and did not rely on the popular perception.
Maybe it is wishful thinking on my part, but it seems that Wisconsin has focused on being an excellent college football program and not an NFL factory. In all honesty, as much as I dislike WVU, they fit in that category.
Maybe I digress here, but I like the college game far mire than the pro game and if we crank out the same number of pro players in darn near reverse proportion to our hopefully high success rate on the field, I will be a very happy man.
Now, can you please post something on expected Dance Team outfits for 2012!!!

Comment by SFPitt 02.23.12 @ 3:28 am

SFPitt – I think that DW’s recruiting and his pumping out NFL players (which was impressive) only served to point out just what you say, that he was a terrible gameday coach.

But, PITT has also had the problem of being very overconfident at the most inopportune times, sometimes even within the games themselves. Ohio and Bowling Green are the prime examples of this, but the Cincy debacle in ’09 and other games where we blew big halftime and late leads show this also.

I believe DW didn’t have the ability to get all his players on the same page and ready to play football week after week. It was as if the players liked him as an individual and as a HC but never really took his attempts at leadership seriously.

If Chryst and staff can instill a real and solid sense of team without the individual sense of entitlement some players have had in the past (Baldwin and Sunseri to name two) and avoid the rifts on the team that that entitlement creates (OL v Sunseri in the last two years), he’ll be ahead of the curve coming in.

He doesn’t have to win ten games in his first year, although that would be nice, but has to be fair across the board and create a true sense of competition at all positions.

Comment by Reed 02.23.12 @ 5:08 am

Actually the rankings of recruits should have been compared to the results 3 or 4 years down the line, but point well taken.

Here is the latest Zeise blog with some very interesting insights on Chryst

link to blogs.sites.post-gazette.com

Comment by wbb 02.23.12 @ 7:32 am

EMel – the women’s team this year has 0 – that’s right, 0 – juniors and seniors. It’s a team composed entirely of freshmen and sophomores. I don’t know how that happened, but watch out in 2 years because I would hope they’ll be pretty good.

Comment by KeyboardKev 02.23.12 @ 8:10 am

wbb – that’s why I used a seven year stretch because I figured it covered just about two complete careers of recruits.

For instance if you look at both teams 2007 recruiting you’ll see that PITT at #8th nationally had records of 9/4, 10/3, 8/5, 6/7 for the next four years.

Wisconsin was 41st in 2007 and their following four years were 7/6, 10/3, 11/2, 11/2.

That is just a snapshot of one recruiting class year. Remember that PITT also had McCoy and Lewis in those four years following 2007 and IMO they overshadowed, by far, the rest of that recruiting class. Had either McCoy, or Lewis in 2009, not signed on PITT’s record would have been abysmal IMO.

From looking at Wisconsin over those years they seemed to have had a much more well rounded team with strong contributions across the board, at least on offense.

There are a million ways to parse these facts but overall I do think it shows a case of one team doing more with less…

Comment by Reed 02.23.12 @ 8:36 am

REED:

Because he was a good judge of talent, part of me wishes Wanny would somehow find his way back to Pitt as AD in charge of recruiting…maybe a glorified version of Bob Junko.

BUT, I don’t want him anywhere near the X’s and O’s for the reasons you state.

Comment by SFPitt 02.23.12 @ 8:46 am

Reed, Walt Harris was a good game day coach and terrific offensive mind, his short comings were his relationship with local highschool coaches, and alumni. Dave Wannstedt was a good guy and was better at the orginization aspects, recruiting, developing and maintaining relationships with area high school coaches and the boosters. Paul Chryst by most accounts is an excellent X & Os guy, if he can recruit well and develop talent anywhere near as well as he did in Wisconsin, then he will do well.

Comment by Justinian 02.23.12 @ 9:10 am

Face it, Wanny had that conservative pro mentality where you let the other lose more than you go out and win. This works when you have the horses like Alabama and USC have … but IMO his downfall was lack of quality OL recruits.

A good running game approach when you control the ball and time of possession makes up for a lot of ills … and the 10 win 09 team did this very well, especially due to having a healthy OL for the entire season.

I believe this will be in large part the same approach that Chryst will take, although he may put more of a focus on a mobile, running QB ( a la his new QB coach Brooks Bollinger) … thus the reason for siching A Gonzalez back to QB along with EJ Banks. (just a guess)

Comment by wbb 02.23.12 @ 9:14 am

If he ever decides that he wants to step away from coaching, I would certainly be on board with Dave Wannstedt replacing Steve Pederson as athletic director.

Comment by Justinian 02.23.12 @ 9:18 am

wbb, One of the things I like about Chryst is that he keeping an open mind. He wants see players on the field and to form his own opinions. Yes, he relies greatly on the development of the running game like Wannestedt, but he’s also creative and used a mobil quarterback well last season. I don’t really like systems guys, football is a game of many different individual match-ups. Putting your players in situations that cater to their strengths is good common sense. I think Chryst fully appreciates that.

Comment by Justinian 02.23.12 @ 9:27 am

Emel – I’m not a close follower of the women’s hoops team, but I do remember that a couple years ago basically all of the freshmen and sophomores transferred out of the program (I think they lost 5 young players in 1 offseason). If I remember correctly, most of them were for non-basketball reasons (family issues, distance from home, etc.). The team has really struggled since then, particularly against the more experienced teams in the conference (UConn, Notre Dame). Currently the team is almost all freshmen and sophomores. I have no idea if they are talented enough to turn things around, but I suspect that Berenato will get at least another year with this group.

Comment by Pantherman13 02.23.12 @ 9:28 am

Reed,

As always a very good analysis, Wanny was his own worst enemy during his tenure at Pitt.

Comment by Jim from Dallas 02.23.12 @ 9:41 am

SFPitt – there is no way the AD should be involved in the day to day workings of the football program and if I were a HC, at PITT or anywhere, I’d resign immediately should that happen.

There is no faster way for a HC to lose his authority and leadership over his staff and players than to have someone above him in the ‘chain of command’ taking over a key component of the football program.

I feel very strongly about this. In my 33 years of professional life I saw this happen a more than a few times and each instance was an unmitigated disaster for everyone involved.

If you don’t think your HC can recruit well enough to win games then you get rid of him.

Personally, I don’t think DW is intellectually adept enough to be an AD anywhere, but that’s just my opinion.

Plus, he’s not going to return to PITT in a professional capacity after he was fired against his will.

I also think DW’s recruiting was pretty overrated in a real sense. he got the 4* and 5* kids but lets be honest, if he hadn’t landed two RBs in McCoy and Lewis then every season he had would have been a losing one.

Actual strong recruiting is such that the other 21 players you field can be able to win games for you.

Comment by Reed 02.23.12 @ 11:36 am

Historically speaking, has Pitt ever had 6 QB’s on the roster at once like we do now?

Comment by Yup 02.23.12 @ 11:39 am

Reed, As and addendum to your comments:

If DW had recruited or developed better quarterbacks the results on the field could have been a lot better. The drop off from the Walt Harris years at the quarterback position was a major issue. Dave Wannestedt, for whatever reason, didn’t have much talent or ability at the position.

Comment by Justinian 02.23.12 @ 11:45 am

In 06, Tyler Palko led the BE in TD passes, passer rating and finished second to Brian Brohm in passing yards. The problem is that the defense stunk .. and had to face the likes of Pat White, Steve Slaton, Ray Rice, Brian Brohm, Michael Bush, etc. .. Pitt finished 6 and 6 that year.

The deropoff of QB followed with Stull’s 09 season being the exception .. of course ebing supplemented by Lewis and a healthy OL

Comment by wbb 02.23.12 @ 12:38 pm

I know I’m throwing out a lot of stats but since 2004 PITT has been a pretty one sided team offensively.

Under Palko’s three years starting we had:

2004 Run = 1173 @ 105th and 24th passing
2005 Run = 1285 @ 93rd and 67th passing
2006 Run = 1476 @ 72rd and 20th passing

Then after he left & still w/DW:

2007 Run = 1697 @ 71st and 104th passing
2008 Run = 1808 @ 65th and 68th passing
2009 Run = 2344 @ 34th and 67th passing

Got better each year with the run under Wannstedt but pretty much floundered with the passing game which was never strong enough to carry the team.

Comment by Reed 02.23.12 @ 2:49 pm

Reed – excellent piece. Its nice to read something compelling and fact-based that brings some optimism into the Pitt FB discussions. Thanks very much.

Comment by JLawrence 02.23.12 @ 3:26 pm

FWIW:

2010 – Rushing 45th Passing 74th

2011 – Rushing 74th Passing

(Thanks wbb – I ran out of steam)

Comment by wbb 02.23.12 @ 3:29 pm

2010: Run 45th Passing 74th

2011: Run 74th Passing 77th

Comment by wbb 02.23.12 @ 3:56 pm

Okay I don’t know if anybody already hit on this point, but if Chryst was such a good coach that he made a 60th ranked recruiting classes into quality Top 25 football teams, then he should have no problem turning Pitt’s circa Top 25 recruiting classes into a good football product. Obviously we all don’t think this is going to happen. This is all I could think about throughout this article Reed and I don’t need another reason to be disappointed this year.

Comment by Timmeh 02.23.12 @ 9:29 pm

Timmeh – I don’t really understand your comment when put against the context of the article I wrote.

First off, the article was about Wisconsin staff as a whole and not about Chryst. The Wisconsin staff had that winning success not one person. If you must point to one person it would be Brett Bielema as the HC.

Just as if you must point to one person for PITT’s rather average W/L record over those same years it would have to be Dave Wannstedt. But again, it was the whole PITT staff who contributed to that record, not just the HC.

Secondly, my point was that we may very well not have Top 25 recruiting classes but could very well have successful seasons on the field, just as Wisconsin did because Chryst’s and his staff’s recruiting philosophy will most probably be aligned with what Wisconsin’s was.

Also, your statement “then he should have no problem turning Pitt’s circa Top 25 recruiting classes into a good football product. Obviously we all don’t think this is going to happen.”

I read and listen to all the PITT football stuff I can and I think the large majority of PITT fans do indeed think that Paul Chryst is going to put out a “good football product”. Unless you meant a MNC-type season right off the bat. That’s a pipe dream.

As to being disappointed this year, that is a personal thing and depends on what your expectations are. Some feel that with a new staff, no WVU and a weak schedule we should rack up the wins and a BE championship. Others think we’ll be around .500.

I think you throw a little bit of pure logical reasoning out when you have a first year HC at a program. My stance is that we should see an improvement over last year in his rookie season then when his players are comfortable with him, his staff and his systems we will see solid winning football from then on.

Comment by Reed 02.24.12 @ 8:11 am

[…] comment on the “Historical Recruiting Comparison” post really got me thinking about PITT’s latest Top 25 recruiting classes and how they will […]


First of all, Reed I meant no disrespect and I love reading this blog so please don’t think I am am trying to offend you.

But for this particular article, like I said, all I could think about was that Chryst and his coaches should have no problem turning Pitt into a great team because they already have so much more talent (according to the recruiting sites) to work with than Wisconsin did. I am by no means saying he can’t be successful and that it isn’t gonna be a group effort with his coaches.

But the way I interpreted this article, it should be no problem for Chryst and his coaches to make a good football team out of Pitt given the talent available. I understand you were trying to defend his recruiting efforts and telling us not to think much out of his recruiting methods given his previous success with sub par classes. But I just couldn’t help but think that he should be in the driver’s seat right now in terms of him translating the talent he has available into a good football product.

So I am not saying you would be responsible by any means for my disappointment if Pitt shits the bed again next year (that is more of a personal problem for me and most Pitt fans I’d say). I think next year will be an adjustment for him as a first year coach(plus we still have Tino), so I am not expecting too much already. I honestly think people are just plain dumb if they think Pitt “with a new staff, no WVU and a weak schedule we should rack up the wins and a BE championship. ” I am one of those people who “believe we’ll be around .500.”

But if you reread your comment “That Wisconsin, with Chryst, Huxtable and Rudolph on staff, was way more adept at getting results out of their recruiting than PITT has been, even if Wisconsin’s were average classes,” then maybe you can see where I am coming from. But I also believe alot of that was getting “players who “fit in” and contribute,” as you state above.

Comment by Timmeh 02.24.12 @ 1:22 pm

Powered by WordPress © PittBlather.com

Site Meter