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November 30, 2011

LiveBlog: City Game No. 80

Filed under: Basketball,liveblog — Chas @ 4:30 pm

The latest in urban rivalries.

Or something like that.

It’s a cold night. Bit of wind to make it feel worse. Definitely thinking either a porter or a Scotch ale to enjoy with tonight’s game.

Its the 80th edition of the City Game. Pitt holds a 48-31 overall advantage. Pitt has won 29 of the last 32. The Panthers haven’t lost to the Stage Magicians since December 2000. Someday (or night) it will happen. Pitt will lose the game. Hopefully this is not that night.

As usual. Moderated chat. Not every comment will go through. Not because I hate you (probably), but generally because of redundancy. The abusive will be blocked. The stupid will be mocked.

Liveblog is just below, but if you need to break the liveblog out from the site, Click Here.





Think Dokish is excited about the future of Pitt football?

link to panthersprey.blogspot.com

Comment by Timmeh 11.30.11 @ 5:08 pm

Haha and sorry for detracting attention away from the imminent basketball game

Comment by Timmeh 11.30.11 @ 5:13 pm

Cam Wright suspended for tonight’s game. No reason given

Comment by wbb 11.30.11 @ 6:53 pm

Yea, you’d almost think TG or somebody paid him to write that puff piece. (or maybe just let him at the lunch buffet)

Comment by EMel 11.30.11 @ 8:02 pm

Lot of guys being suspended this year already, let me see…..Moore, Patterson and now Wright.

Is there a problem on this team?

Comment by EMel 11.30.11 @ 8:03 pm

State Magicians = funny.

Comment by Lee in Altoona 11.30.11 @ 8:24 pm

er… I meant Stage Magicians… it’s still funny.

Comment by Lee in Altoona 11.30.11 @ 8:25 pm

are these ref’s beig paid by every BE school besides SYR ad WV?

Comment by Yup 11.30.11 @ 8:40 pm

see that Epps made an apperance

Comment by wbb 11.30.11 @ 9:19 pm

My favorite comment of the year occurred from Silver Panther tonight….”Gibbs is like a meandering ant bringing the ball up court”
Priceless….

Comment by Dan 72 11.30.11 @ 9:25 pm

The second part I didn’t fire off. Should read “Gibbs is like a meandering ant bringing the ball up court, who stops at every picnic along the way.”

Comment by SilverPanther in NYC 11.30.11 @ 9:47 pm

Agreed….don’t know what we will do if Trey is out for a long period. Did not like our odds at Tennessee with him. Is it my imagination or has Gibbs actually slowed down this year?

Comment by Dan 72 11.30.11 @ 10:19 pm

Personally, I think Gibbs looks fine. He’s one of the best players in the conference. He’s a deliberate ball handler, who moves not to make mistakes though. He’s obviously not a creator. I think he handles the ball well though and looks for opportunities to create a shot or draw a foul more than in the past. He knocks down big shots. Chas mentioned it in the liveblog- we may be taking him for granted….I was hoping Johnson would get some minutes at point, but it doesn’t look like that is going to happen conventionally.

Comment by SilverPanther in NYC 11.30.11 @ 10:29 pm

Don’t understand why Birch & Zanna ONLY played 13 minutes each. Their played turned around this team, the last two games against Penn & RMU.
Birch could have blocked or altered or caused Duquesne to not even attempt many of those back door cut layups and drives to lane to score.
This team was just coming together with Birch & Zanna, I just don’t get it. Sure Taylor had a career game, but Birch could have made those setup dunks just as well.

Oh well, maybe Birch playing so well when Sleepy was out will spur him now to play better. If tonight is any indication, Sleepy has his FIRST CAREER double double. He must have read that piece in the PG when it said Birch got a double double in 5th career game and first start and Taylor had none in 72 career games.

And boy oh boy does this team have problems with turnovers. Problem is……BOTH Woodall & Gibbs are loose with the ball. Neither one are particular good dribblers when pressured and don’t use their bodies well to shield the ball.

23 turnovers against a middling team like Duquesne is not good. Those two better clean up their act before Tenneshee (dr. dentures) and Oklahoma State is coming up at MSG at well.

Well at least they didn’t lose.
On another matter, what’s up with the attendance at the Pete this year. Are people getting so quiche like they won’t even show up for non-con games. Please sell your seats to someone that would love to go. There were more DU people at Consol tonight than Pitt folks. That’s sad !

Comment by EMel 11.30.11 @ 11:03 pm

Birch should be the starting center on this team, Sleepy Taylor should be the 6th man and should start at PF next when Nas retires.

This is the third time of approximately 3421 times I will say this during the season. I imagine it will start getting annoying.

Comment by Jimbo Covert's My Dad 11.30.11 @ 11:53 pm

Hey Mel, how are ya?? Hope things are going well for you. Still debating about trip south at holiday time. If I do come down, will give you my cell ahead of time. Dinner and drinks on me.

As for the game, couldn’t go, couldn’t watch. Glad we got the win. A lot of the radio stations were playing up that this might be the year Duquesne picks one off.

Ya, Woodall and Gibbs, talk about making me nervous bringing the ball up. Trying to take ball out 2 or 3 times in a row against LaSalle at the end was an adventure.

@Jimbo, we’ll all be joinging you for the 3421 times saying that this year!!! LOL!!!

@Chas….if you see this. Quickie on a football note.

Realize that it isn’t going to happen. Many people feel it won’t.

I still would like to know, if, if, if, if and only if, in a million years, West Virginia somehow manages to win out over the Big East, by any method, (court, settlement) whatever, does that not leave the gate wide open for Pitt and Syracuse to leave immediately.

Any lawyers feel free. Again, not to beat a dead horse, I realize, odds are stacked against WVU.

My only question, is, if somehow that would happen, would we be free to move on??

Comment by Dan 12.01.11 @ 12:16 am

At least Dante’s stat line was encouraging. Still, this should be a 20/20 minute split type situation. Khem has too much talent and won’t be here more than two years– use it before you lose it.

Comment by tacocat 12.01.11 @ 2:01 am

Nice article featuring Tray Woodall in USAToday.

link to usatoday.com

Comment by ECH 12.01.11 @ 5:57 am

Heck, get Sleepy and Tree out there together. Aiken concurs.

Comment by steve 12.01.11 @ 6:53 am

Sleepy had 15 pts and 11 rebounds including 6 for 6 from the field. I think whoever is playing better that game should get the more minutes.

Remember, Birch is a freshman and is subject to inconsistency

Comment by wbb 12.01.11 @ 7:18 am

BTW, Birch did start at center.

Comment by wbb 12.01.11 @ 7:20 am

Taylor played quite well, and if anything it was good to get his confidence up. As well as Birch has played, this team will be that much better if both he and Taylor are effective, perhaps even game changers. As someone posted above, there’s nothing wrong with riding a hot hand.

Comment by JW 12.01.11 @ 8:08 am

The freshman J Johnson looks to have a real good stroke from the outside, which bodes well in the future … since with the addition of Adams along with Birch and Taylor next year, it should open up a lot of open perimeter shots

Comment by wbb 12.01.11 @ 8:27 am

It amazes me how people gives Gibbs a hard time. A guy that shoots nearly 50% from the field, 90% from the line, and has major onions….wow, some people are really spoiled in the ‘Burgh.

His defense and breakways skills are average and his passing is below average. Not shocking…he’s NOT a Point Guard!

Let’s give the kid a break. Lets run into March with a guy averaging 20 points a game and who can make a FT….to me scoring at the line and beyond the arc is way more valuable than lock down defense and assist-to-turnover.

Comment by PaulyP 12.01.11 @ 9:07 am

I think they are learning how to play together and I have confidence that Jamie Dixon knows what he’s doing. The Panthers seem to experiment and try different combinations in the period leading up to the Big East season. Will this team be as good as last year’s team? I don’t think so, but it’s a long season and they have some athleticism up front with Kehm Birch and Talib Zanna. Even coming off the bench they will give the team a different make up than we’ve seen before.

Comment by Justinian 12.01.11 @ 9:12 am

I think Jamie is still try find the lineup he likes. Birch and Zanna seem to play better together than Zanna and Dante. The guards have to find a way to get the ball inside to Dante though – there were at least 3 occasions had they gone over the top Taylor would have had 3 easy dunks. The TO’s were frustrating, but that really is one of those “coachable” situation unlike Sunseri at QB. This year will be frustrating at times but I can see where this team will be a beast next year. Next year’s team will have much better ball distribution and Pitt won’t be as reliant on one person (Gibbs) to take control of a game.

Comment by Tossing Thabeets 12.01.11 @ 9:15 am

Anyone else notice that Zanna is most effective facing the hoop and he can even put it on the floor a little and drive to the hoop or pull up for a short jump shot off the dribble?

I believe he has the offensive potential to play some at the 3–not sure how well he could defend at the 3, though.

When Adams arrives, assuming he is as good as many think, then maybe we will see some of Zanna at the 3.

On another note, I think JJ Moore may be capable of developing into a guy capable of playing the 2, not just the 3. If Moore would eventually make the NBA he might do it as a 2 guard, IMO.

I am fairly certain, Coach Dixon will see things differently,no doubt.

Comment by pitt1972 12.01.11 @ 9:43 am

Jamie looks at who can defend first .. he is definitely not a ‘high-octane’ type

Comment by wbb 12.01.11 @ 9:47 am

He’s going to be looking for a long time to find a defense mix that works effectively with this squad. My biggest hope is that a lot of these guys are young and at least some of them will figure out the surest way to stay on the court is to defend well.

Comment by Ghost of Hornman 12.01.11 @ 10:16 am

wbb:

Taylor played well offensively, but his defense was terrible. Again.

This team is awful defensively. Just disgusting.

I would also look at the statistics before considering Jamie a “defensive” coach. Pitt’s offensive efficiency has routinely been much better than its defensive efficiency. This has been the case since Jamie has been the coach. The spread is only getting wider.

Pitt needs to pick it up on defense or they will lose more games than they should. A crunch time line-up of Gibbs, Woodall, Patterson, Robinson, and Taylor is just not going to get it done on defense. The group is not athletic enough and is undersized.

Comment by omar 12.01.11 @ 10:19 am

No doubt Zanna sees himself as a 3. The coaches disagree. I know it drives them nuts when he drifts outside of the paint to take jumpers or drive to the hoop. They want him to do the dirty work underneath the hoop.

He can’t defend most 3’s. He couldn’t defend Montiero last night and that’s why his minutes were limited.

Comment by boubacar aw 12.01.11 @ 10:24 am

I went back to look at last years games a bit last night to find out why we are so sloppy with the turnovers at the top of the key. Suprisingly, I found a lot of the same passes last year but players seem to be anticipating and came to the ball harder. Of all our flaws, the unforced turnovers bother me most.

Comment by Dan 72 12.01.11 @ 10:27 am

The last time Pitt had a top-10 defense was in 2004. The offense has been in the top-10 almost every year. The defense hasn’t sniffed the top-10 in 4 or 5 years. It has hovered around a top-30. The offense has been top-10 every year but 2009. This year Pitt’s offense is ranked #2 and the defense is #153. Pitt shouldn’t even practice offense right now, nor should they be awarding playing time based on offensive production. This team needs to find a better balance between offense and defense. The current crunch time lineup is not good enough.

Comment by omar 12.01.11 @ 10:30 am

Agreed Omar… I’m sure Jamie saw this coming as most fans did with the loss of our three best defenders last year on a team that wasn’t great defensively.

Hopefully Birch’s minutes will continue to go up and JJ will continue to show more than a passing interest in playing D.

Are Gilbert and Durand heading for redshirts??

Comment by Pitt89 12.01.11 @ 10:39 am

Also, Birch had a very tough time defending last night too. He repeatedly over played the hedge on the high ball screen and duquense kept slipping the screen for easy buckets. His timing on the blocks was off and missed a ton of them. His poor defense was part of the reason his minutes were limited last night.

And Taylor played the best offensive game of his career. He was under control, aggressive and smart. After seeing Birch play well in his absence and take his starting spot and knowing that Duquesne was weak inside, it would have been natural for him to come in and try to do too much.

Taylor’s defense wasn’t great, probably never will be, but certainly was not terrible and certainly better than Birch’s last night. Birch certainly has a lot more potential to be better defensively, he just needs experience/strength.

Duquense was a weird matchup (4 guards) for Pitt, I would be careful about drawing too many conclusions from last night. They won’t see anything like it again. Pitt got the win, time to move on to Tenn.

Comment by boubacar aw 12.01.11 @ 10:42 am

Omar, I’m not questioning your info .. just curious of Pitt’s #2 offensive ranking. Is this based on points scored?

Comment by wbb 12.01.11 @ 10:49 am

Durand Johnson will be a redshirt this year for sure.

The intent was to redshirt Gilbert too. Dixon made a huge mistake when he plyaed Gilbert against Rider (for about a minute). Once he got in a game he was no longer eligible for a voluntary redshirt. He could still qualify for a medical redshirt but only if he suffers a MEDICALLY DOCUMENTED, season ending injury.

Who knows, maybe Dixon will need Gilbert down the road this year, but he should have kept his options open.

Comment by boubacar aw 12.01.11 @ 10:52 am

Slipping those screens illustrates poor help D/communication as much as any issues with Birch out top. The one thing I felt with Birch last night was over-reliance on trying to block shots rather than sound post positioning. But I still felt he was an effective presence. Overall, he’s become the least of the defensive issues.

To Omar’s point about the offense/defense focus I agree overall, but there are a good number of easy baskets coming from Pitt’s offensive mistakes: weak/sloppy ball-handling on perimeter, poor effort to get open (v-cuts, etc). As efficient as they are offensively, I can’t help but think that more crispness would cut down on a number of those easy, transition buckets. (But overall, for sure, the defensive struggles far outweigh those of the offense.)

Comment by JW 12.01.11 @ 10:54 am

boubacar:

i am not drawing conclusions from last night alone. i am drawing conclusions from 9 games including the exhibitions. this team SUCKS defensively. worst Pitt team i have ever seen on that end. it is embarrasing.

Comment by omar 12.01.11 @ 10:55 am

wbb:

it’s based on points-per-possesion. it’s a measure of offensive efficiency that accounts for the number of possessions in a game. it smoothes results and allows one to compare teams by adjusting for the pace of the game. some teams shoot more quickly than others. if you are scoring less than 1 point per possession, then you aren’t efficient regardless of how many points you score. if there are a 100 possessions in a game and you score 80 points, then that isn’t a solid performance offensively. 1 point per possession is the average for all D-1 teams.

Pitt scores 1.19 points per possession. This is the best offensive production in the country.

Comment by omar 12.01.11 @ 11:07 am

With all the talk about our defense, it’s the offensive play over the last five years that has elevated the Pitt basketball program. Back when their defence was at it’s best, they had trouble in the NCAA Tournament against teams that could score. Yes, the defence needs to get better, but I’ll take Ashton Gibbs in the line-up any day, because he has the ability to hit the 3 when we need it most. Also the opposition has to respect Pitt’s outside game. I think we need to get better at getting the ball inside, along with improving the team defence. Overall balance is what will make this year’s team better.

Comment by Justinian 12.01.11 @ 11:21 am

Pitt’s offensive efficiency has been getting better the past few years. The turnovers are still alarming and won’t help that number any. If the Dukes can force 23 turnovers I worry about their prospects against the genuinely good BE defenses they’ll face in conference.

Comment by Ghost of Hornman 12.01.11 @ 11:39 am

i disagree. pitt advanced to the sweet 16 (round 3) three years in a row with the defensive minded teams. pitt has lost in the second round 2 years in a row and 3 out of the last 4 years. Pitt was a #1 and #3 seed in the last two seasons and lost in the second round.

Comment by omar 12.01.11 @ 11:40 am

Gost of Hornman, Turning the ball over is an intirely different issue. Yes and it is something to worry about. If look at the Big East games that have given us biggest problems, more often than not, they are teams with quick guards.

Comment by Justinian 12.01.11 @ 11:56 am

Boubacar, are you sure about Gilbert’s redshirt eligibility? I know that redshirt rules you cited are in place for football .. but not so sure if it is applicable for basketball.

It seems to me that we have had some freshman recently that saw some very limited action in the early preseason games that were redshirted (I could be worng)

Comment by wbb 12.01.11 @ 11:58 am

Ormar, As much as we would like to have them on this year’ team, Julius Page and Jeron Brown have used up their NCAA eligilibity.

Comment by Justinian 12.01.11 @ 12:00 pm

I don’t expect this year’s team to be lock-down defensively. However, they have to be better than what they are right now. If you can’t hold Duquense to under 1 PPP, that is not a good sign.

Comment by omar 12.01.11 @ 12:05 pm

@wbb… I was thinking along the same lines as you.

Comment by Pitt89 12.01.11 @ 1:31 pm

Omar, No it’s not. But remember they’ve been playing against each other all summer. It’s like playing against your brother in a one on one game. You know every move that he makes. Also this is a VERY BIG GAME for the Duquesne players.
I think as time goes on that they will get better. They do have to do better in the turn over ratio department. On a positive note, Kehm Birch will certainly give them help. In the previous game I was impressed with how well he guarded on the perimeter and showed enough athleticism to get back underneith as well.

Comment by Justinian 12.01.11 @ 1:38 pm

wbb – I consulted an expert, (I googled “NCAA basketball redshirt rules”). It confirmed what I thought. And I found this little gem in the post-gazette:

What are the redshirt rules in college basketball?
Pitt basketball Q&A with Ray Fittipaldo
Friday, November 20, 2009
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Submit your Pitt basketball question

Q: What are the redshirt rules in college basketball? It seems that players can play in a few games, even without injury, and still get a redshirt. Isn’t that what Travon Woodall did last year, and Talib Zanna might do this year?

Matthew Mills, Granbury, Texas

FITTIPALDO: A player can take a redshirt if he plays in fewer than 20 percent of his team’s total games and there is a documented pre-existing injury that prevents said player from competing the rest of the season. Usually about this time of the year, Pitt coach Jamie Dixon begins to mention to reporters how some freshmen have injuries that are keeping them from practicing.

Read more: link to post-gazette.com

Comment by boubacar aw 12.01.11 @ 2:32 pm

Omar–I have a different take on Pitt’s “bad defense.” Much/most of it statistically goes away if the excessive turnovers are eliminated, IMO.

If you really think about it, quite a few Pitt turnovers (most?) against Duquesne and Long Beach and other opponents either led to breakaway layup points or to fast break opportunities with numbers mismatches and/or against a half-court defense that was not back and set. Those kinds of transition scores greatly skew defensive efficiency ratings to the negative.

Although I am not very happy with defensive execution by Pitt this year when in the regular half-court defensive set, I am certain the statistically poor defensive rating is far more a function of the sloppy ball handling and passing by the offense that feeds the opponents transition offense than it is subpar execution of the half court defense.

Just think what would have been the result if Pitt had made about half as many turnovers last night (say 11, not 23) vs Duquesne. That nets Pitt 12 more possessions and removes 12 possessions from Duquesne. Since each turnover statistically represents a 2 point swing (you lose a 50-50 chance at 2 point opportunity and your opponent gains a 50-50 shot at 2 points) the score changes by +12 for Pitt and -12 for Duquesne and the end result is a 92-57 blowout win. Had that occurred, I don’t think we would be complaining about bad defense being our major problem.

It is clear to me that the offense’s failure to take decent care of the ball is a far far more significant issue than weaker than desired defensive play.

Comment by pitt1972 12.01.11 @ 2:46 pm

I’m with Omar — I’ve got no issue with being efficient on offense, but Pitt is ranked 153 on defensive efficiency. That’s never going to cut it in March. Their opponents adjO is also ranked 160, so it’s not like they’ve been that challenged defensively either. Not to mention their opponents Adj D is ranked 249. They’ve been offensively efficient against teams that don’t defend that well but also underachieving on D against against teams that score better than they defend.

The turnovers will bite them against teams that are tougher to score on.

Comment by Ghost of Hornman 12.01.11 @ 4:18 pm

Ghost of Hornman–My point was/is (unless my understanding of how the rating is computed is incorrect) that once the excess turnover problem is fixed that fix will go most of the way to changing the defensive efficiency rating to a much better one. Its the easy baskets given up in transition after turnovers by the offense that are the primary cause of the poor defensive efficiency rating, it is not primarily caused by Pitt playing bad half-court defense (although, admittedly, that has not been great).

Bottom line, IMO, Omar’s conclusion as to the main reason for the #153 defensive efficiency rating is not factually correct. It is primarily the result of excessive turnovers by the offense, not very poor play by the defense. The defense cannot be blamed (except statistically) for scores made on breakaway layups and on other fast break opportunities initiated due to turnovers by the offense.

Comment by pitt1972 12.01.11 @ 7:01 pm

Turnovers only hurt Oe in as much as it’s an unsuccessful offensive possesion. They’re scoring enough on the other possession to mitigate that on the surface. But turnovers force better transition D, and also allow teams to push tempo and prevent defenders from establishing desired sets. The combination of transition points and poor D cannot be entirely attributed to turnvovers, but it doesn’t help.

Comment by Ghost of Hornman 12.02.11 @ 11:59 am

Transition defense is defense in situations where you are never going to be very effective in preventing a score because you are either the viin your defensive set.

Thus,if you don’t turn it over much (especially in the backcourt and on the perimeter) then you don’t need to worry too much about transition defense.

So, avoid excessive turnovers (keep them to an average of 10 or less and not more than your opponents number) and you take away a significant number of high percentage scoring opportunities from your opponent.

As a result, you gain a disproportionate improvement in your defensive efficiency rating (points allowed per opponent possession) because you have taken away a significant portion of your opponents easiest scoring opportunity possessions.

Comment by pitt1972 12.02.11 @ 1:27 pm

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