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September 23, 2011

Pitt to the ACC is at least a year away. That doesn’t mean the jockeying and speculation of the division format for football hasn’t already started.

Like many, I have no real idea how the ACC divides their conference. I know that they have the Atlantic and Coastal divisions for names. I know that Miami and FSU are kept in separate divisions, because when the divisions were created everyone expected Miami and FSU to regularly battle it out in the ACC Championship game. But I have no idea which school is in which division.

So let’s start with a little basic education:

Atlantic Division

  • Boston College
  • Clemson
  • Florida St.
  • Maryland
  • NC St.
  • Wake Forest

Coastal Division

  • Duke
  • Georgia Tech
  • Miami
  • North Carolina
  • Virginia
  • Virginia Tech

Now one option is to toss Pitt and Syracuse each into one of the divisions. There would be pros and cons for both teams in either division. The Atlantic would include natural rivalry games with BC and Maryland for either. The Coastal offers VT and Miami as old Big East foes. Yet, that also means splitting Pitt and Syracuse. Two teams that while not true rivals, have a long history with each other.

A common suggestion is that with Pitt and Syracuse joining, there are natural geographic divisions that could be used. Reducing some travel costs and building on geographic distance to build rivalries:

North

  • Boston College
  • Maryland
  • Pitt
  • Syracuse
  • Virginia
  • Virginia Tech
  • Wake Forest

South

  • Clemson
  • Duke
  • Florida St.
  • Georgia Tech
  • Miami
  • North Carolina
  • NC St.

Now from a competitive standpoint, this is a mess. FSU, Miami and Clemson in the same division. Georgia Tech, UNC and NC St. is a tough lower tier. The South would be ridiculous.

The North, however, less so. Objectively looking at it, is VT and the 6 dwarfs. You can argue about the cyclical nature of things, but really. This is just plain unbalanced.

The other problem is the North finds itself having a harder time tapping the more fertile recruiting located in the South. North Carolina, Georgia and Florida. With this layout — playing 6 divisional games and even with strict rotating of 3 cross-division games — teams in the North could go 4 years between trips to Florida when you have to swap home and away games. This is assuming that the ACC goes from 8 to 9 conference games. It becomes worse, when you consider the reality that protected games are part of the schedule (for example, NC St. annually plays UNC despite being in separate divsions). That won’t fly.

In fact, the lobbying has already begun. Starting with the Hokies.

Virginia Tech athletic director Jim Weaver vowed Monday night to “fight” a North-South division of the expanded ACC that would, essentially, return Hokies football to the Big East.

The other problem with the North-South split is putting the North Carolina schools in a 3 and 1 situation.

The current 12-team divisional alignment in football isn’t set up in a North-South split. Wake Forest is in the Atlantic and at least has NC State on its side with Maryland, Clemson, Florida State and Boston College. But the Demon Deacons’ two in-state rivals that it would rather play more — UNC and Duke — are in the Coastal with Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Virginia and Miami.

Wake will make it clear that it doesn’t want to be shipped away from the three other North Carolina schools if the league goes to two seven-team divisions. The Demon Deacons want in some form two games against the three in-state schools if there are divisions or if it’s one 14-team league.

“If you do it North-South, then one North Carolina team has to be in the North,” Wake Forest athletic director Ron Wellman said. “We want to play North Carolina more than we do. It’s been four years since we played them at home in football, so we are interested in a concept where we play the North Carolina schools. That’s a point of emphasis for us. As soon as we announce our schedule, our fans are disappointed that we don’t play every North Carolina school in football or [twice in] basketball. Those rivalries were established before the league was in 1953.”

Wake may not be the most influential team in the ACC, but they will likely have VT and Maryland fighting this as well.

I suggested a City/State division:

City: Pitt, Syracuse, BC, Miami, Duke, Wake Forest and Georgia Tech (they are based in Atlanta).

State: Maryland, Virginia, VT, Clemson, UNC, NC St. and FSU.

It also suffers from balance issues. Potentially worse than a North-South split.

The more I look at it, the more likely is that Pitt and Syracuse will be split, but that will be classified as a “protected” gameto allow it to play annually.

Suggestions are welcome for the divisions.

The other thing to consider, will even 9 conference games be enough with 14 teams?

He [VT AD Jim Weaver] said he also advocates increasing the number of conference games from eight to 10, “because it’s getting more and more expensive for nonconference games in terms of the guarantees.”

He is referring to one-time home games against teams such as Appalachian State and Arkansas State, to use Tech’s 2011 football schedule as an example. The Hokies pay those lower-profile schools to play the games.

Weaver’s plan would leave room for two nonconference games. ACC schools should be required to schedule one against another major conference team, he said, while the other can be against a team from a low profile conference or the Championship Subdivision.

I find this intriguing, and might have to be a necessity if conferences go to 16-teams. There would be a lot of resistance to this, though. It would be a hard sell to a lot of teams that want at least 7 home games a year.

Georgia Tech, for example, plays an annual game with Georgia. They would be stuck, then having to decide between getting a 7th game every other year by doing a patsy game. Or they would be looking at limiting themselves to just 6 home games a year when they schedule additional home-and-home series.

Imagine if Pitt and WVU do work out a long-term series after Pitt leaves. What does Pitt do with ND? If they eventually worked something out with Penn State? And never forget, the River City Rivalry.

The concept of 10 conference games makes sense and I like it in the abstract. The reality, though, seems unlikely.





If PSU and ND comes, I say North and South with ND joining the south. Yes, it don’t make geographic sense but ND, on its own, doenn’t make geographic sense.

There is no rhyme or reason to the current divisions so expect the unexpected.

Comment by wbb 09.23.11 @ 12:59 pm

I just care that we are in with Maryland. I think that’s one of our best shots at a new rivalry in the ACC over the long term.

Also, I live in College Park, MD. 🙂

Comment by backacrosstheriver 09.23.11 @ 1:14 pm

Use the North/South but swap Wake and Miami. Done

Comment by Tony Cancilla 09.23.11 @ 1:26 pm

I think its balanced. The only elite ACC football programs right now are VT and kindof FSU. Average programs: Pitt, BC, MD, Clemson, UNC, Miami, GT. Bad programs: UVA, Duke, NCST, WF, Cuse

Comment by Tony C 09.23.11 @ 1:34 pm

in basketball, I would Pitt with Va, VT, Miami, Clemson, NC St and Wake

in football, I would put Pitt with Duke, VA, Wake, Syracuse, NC St and GT

Comment by wbb 09.23.11 @ 1:34 pm

I’d like to be paired with MD, Va Tech and either Miami or Florida State. Indifferent on all other schools for football. As long as Pitt hoops can play the Cuse, UNC and Dook at least once per year, I’m fine with that and what the ACC brings.

Comment by TX Panther 09.23.11 @ 1:38 pm

North South PITT ORANGE BC MD VT V WAKE.

Comment by FRANKCAN 09.23.11 @ 1:43 pm

In addition to the Georgia/Georgia Tech rivalry there is the annual Clemson/South Carolina game. I would hope we could preserve our West Virginia game as well. Therefore I do not prefer a ten game in conference schedule. With seven teams per division and one protected game it will put the other division teams on a six year “home and away” cycle. That is one of the drawbacks of such large conferences.

For divisions I would prefer Pitt going to the Coastal and Syracuse to the Atlantic. Our protected game, as you suggested, would be with Syracuse. There is no way Wake Forest is going to stand for being split from the rest of the North Carolina schools. For a sixteen team conference the split is highly dependent on who the other two schools are.

Comment by John In South Carolina 09.23.11 @ 1:50 pm

Don’t think there will be divisions in hoops, will there???

Comment by Dan 09.23.11 @ 2:43 pm

I don’t mind being dropped into the current Coastal division with Syracuse being protected. We have history with Miami and VT and this arrangement gives everyone regular access to the Florida schools. Syracuse will become our main rival with time.

10 conf games may be doable once all the conferences move to 16’s and the NCAA moves to 13 regular season games. Yeah it’s coming, folks.

Comment by AJB240 09.23.11 @ 3:00 pm

It sounds like continuation of the WVU series is going to depend more on WVU than on Pitt. I heard a quote from Oliver Luck the other day in which he called the Pitt administrators “liars”. That type of rhetoric doesn’t necessarily lead me to believe that WVU wants to continue the series.

BTW, anyone else think Luck comes off as arrogant? He clearly has been talking to other conferences about jumping, but once Pitt and Syracuse leave he reacts with righteous indignation? Almost as bad as Notre Dame…

Comment by Pantherman13 09.23.11 @ 3:03 pm

Luck cannot stand Pitt administrators or anyone associated with the university.

He is an arrogant ass, but at the end of the day he is still a hoopie!

Comment by Dallas Panther 09.23.11 @ 3:19 pm

I remember an interview of Dave Wannstadt just before a West Virginia basketball game when WVU was playing in the NCAA Tournament. Wannstadt was asked if he could root for fellow Big East team West Virginia. He paused for a moment, as if he couldn’t believe he was being asked, and then looking directly at the reporter gave him an emphatic no. I agree with his sentiments.

Comment by Justinian 09.23.11 @ 3:44 pm

With each passing day Pitt’s move to the ACC looks better and better. Marinatto is still talking, doing nothing, and now TCU is mentioned by the Dallas News as as the Big 12’s 10th team link to collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com. Marinatto appears to want the football conference to implode.

Comment by TonyinHouston 09.23.11 @ 3:58 pm

John Marinotto is, to quote Shakespeare, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

John Marinotto is not qualified to be in charge of the South Fayette Township girls softball program, let alone a major college conference.

I wish Swafford and the other ACC schools would talk some sense into Boston College. So BC has a grudge against what UConn did in 2003 (the lawsuit)! So what?

If the ACC invited UConn and Rutgers (they probably prefer Notre Dame, but Notre Dame will not come) it would kill the Big East, Pitt and Syracuse would join sooner, the ACC could then force ESPN to re-open the TV contract and demand more money, which they would easily get. BC will have to compete against and recruit against UConn whether or not the schools are in the same conference.

Penn State is an ACC pipe dream. They make too much money in the Numerically Challeneged Conference to leave it. Also, Penn State is starting a Division I hockey program. Terry Pegula, the owner of the Buffalo Sabres, gave State Penn a ton of money to build an arena with an ice rink for hockey. The Big 10-11-12 is going to form as a major hockey conference with Penn State, OSU, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota and Wisconsin. Notre Dame would fit right in with that if they wanted to.

Comment by Penguins Fan 09.23.11 @ 4:33 pm

Agree totally with you Penguins Fan. Taking UConn and Rutgers would kill the Big East in football. It would also isolate Penn State in the east. The ACC seems to have something else in mind though. As they seem to know what they are doing, I will not second guess their delay.

Comment by John In South Carolina 09.23.11 @ 5:03 pm

Pitt to the coastal, Syracuse to the Atlantic and be done with it…I know football rules, but you can’t have Duke, NC, and the CUSE in the same BB divison…I like the 10 game league format, boohoo if we don’t get to play 2 cup cakes a year!

Comment by HbgFrank 09.23.11 @ 5:41 pm

Hbg, I agree with you. The idea is to upgrade the program. The fans don’t want see the Panthers play cupcakes. During the Walt Harris years Pitt did quite well against some very good Virginia Tech teams and they also played Miami tough when the Huricanes were playing for National Championships. Besides the schedule would have been tougher in the Big Ten

Comment by Justinian 09.23.11 @ 5:52 pm

[…] post: Pitt Blather Permalink » ACC Futures: Divisions and Scheduling Posted in Uncategorized | Tags: alumni-writing, ffiliation-or-official, official-connection, […]


I for one do not want UConn and Rutgers to join the ACC. Rutgers brings absolutely nothing to the table – for all of the hype Schiano received a few years ago, the body of work over time doesn’t match the hype. Although I admire what UConn did last year in bball, they won’t have the same bball program when Calhoun leaves.

Comment by pittfan92 09.23.11 @ 6:35 pm

Scrap it all, do a lottery draw.

Comment by dugdog 09.23.11 @ 6:39 pm

They just need to go to 16. Four team pods with rotating divisions. Each pod is with the other three in a division on a rotating basis.

Comment by Chris 09.23.11 @ 6:53 pm

I still can’t get used to thinking of this in football terms. Guess that shows how irrelevant BE football felt for all those years.

Comment by Stfan 09.23.11 @ 7:09 pm

Comment by wbb 09.23.11 @ 7:18 pm

I saw several groups of LSU fans in the Strip District today. I used to be a good Bigeastie Boy and root for the Big East team during out-of-conference games, but now SCREW IT! I told them all “Geaux Tigers! Beat them Hoopies!”

Comment by apostles03 09.23.11 @ 7:42 pm

can’t believe they were in the Strip when they could have been at the Morgantown Mall

Comment by wbb 09.23.11 @ 7:54 pm

We should not have basketball divisions even at 16. Following the Big East format for basketball (play 12 teams once and 3 teams twice) and the SEC format for football (regional alignment) is a recipe for success

Comment by Tony C 09.23.11 @ 8:23 pm

[…] more: Pitt Blather Permalink » ACC Futures: Divisions and Scheduling Posted in Uncategorized | Tags: alumni-writing, ffiliation-or-official, Futures, […]


Rushel Shell breaks wpial rushing record.

Comment by alcofan 09.23.11 @ 9:00 pm

John in SC, you are right. I kinda think the ACC wants Notre Dame and UConn as first choices and are willing to make them both sweat bullets for a while. I’m sure they have their reasons and I’m not complaining.

I do not care what division the Panthers end up in the ACC. The important thing is that the Panthers are IN.

I did see the Bayou Bengals’ buses on I-79 this afternoon (near the Carnegie exit). I hope they win, and we can count on the fine fans in Morgantown to display their typical fine sportsmanship.

Comment by Penguins Fan 09.23.11 @ 9:14 pm

There is no way in h*ll Pitt would recommend Rutgers to the ACC after what they pulled last year on Pitt

Why is it that every time I look at the s*it that Texas pulled the last several years I can only think of joepud.

Comment by joel 09.23.11 @ 10:55 pm

I guess my question is..who would Pitt’s ACC rivals be? Because this explains how they do the football games:

This division structure leads to each team playing the following games:

Five games within its division (one against each opponent)

One game against a designated permanent rival from the other division (not necessarily the school’s closest traditional rival, even within the conference); this is similar to the SEC setup

Two rotating games (one home, one away) against teams in the other division

So, you’re looking at 8 games currently.

Let’s hypothetically place Pitt in the Atlantic division, and assume Cuse is in the Coastal.

This is what Pitt’s conference schedule could look like:

@Boston College
vs Clemson
vs Florida State
@NC State
vs Wake Forest
@Syrcause (for the sake of argument, this is the permanent rival from the other division)
vs Duke
@Miami

As I said that’s hypothetical and just made up for the sake of argument.

Under the current arrangment Pitt, if they were in the ACC here today, could still schedule ND, PSU, WVU and Cincy if they wanted. Which makes for a tough schedule, yes, but it could be done.

Oh, and for people who are saying “what about WVU”/”What if we lose the WVU game?” as my stepdad said “who cares? We’re playing Penn State in 2013 (2012?).

Comment by Lou Gagliardi 09.24.11 @ 12:06 am

(Sorry, hit enter before I was done.)

Oh, and for people who are saying “what about WVU”/”What if we lose the WVU game?” as my stepdad said “who cares? We’re playing Penn State in 2013 (2012?). That’ll put more butts in seats than the hillbillies to the South.”

Yeah, we’ll lose WVU but as long as we can keep scheduling PSU or even just ND we’ll be fine.

Comment by Lou Gagliardi 09.24.11 @ 12:11 am

The only problem with the city/state division is that Duke and UNC would be separate and for hoops that would never be allowed to happen. Not ever. Those teams will play twice in hoops each year no matter what.

Comment by The Incline 09.24.11 @ 12:40 am

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I really don’t think the division alinement matters that much. The teams will be divided in some sort of equitible fashion. The only thing that I am certain of is that Duke and North Carolina will be in the same division, at least in basketball. If they stay at 14 teams, Wake Forest doesn’t weild as much power as the big two and could possibly end up in the other division. However, if the ACC goes to 16 teams, which I believe they will, it will be a moot point.

Comment by Justinian 09.24.11 @ 8:10 am

I think whatever the divisions are will be ok, but I have one request, let them be in a division with Tech… for us Atlanta Pitt fans…

Comment by JoeP 09.24.11 @ 9:37 am

I think the setup is dependent on getting UConn and Rutgers. Get to 16, then go North/South with BC, Cuse, Pitt, Md, Va Tech, UVA, UConn, Rutgers in the north; UNC, Duke, Wake, NC State, Ga Tech, Clemson, FSU and Miami in the south. Play the 9 conference games- 7 in your division every year, plus a home and home with 2 schools from the opposite division.

For BBall, pool them all together, play all teams once, and 3 additional against teams in your “pod” for a total of 18 conference games.

Pod 1- UConn, Cuse, BC, Rutgers
Pod 2- Pitt, Maryland, Va Tech, UVa
Pod 3- UNC, Duke, NC State, Wake
Pod 4- FSU, Miami, Clemson, Ga Tech

Comment by hacky3 09.24.11 @ 11:37 pm

For all those that think Pitt can put more fannies in the seats without a WVU game..you can’t sell out unless you play WVU or ND. When Penn State comes to town, Heinz will be half filled with Nittney Lion fans. Face it WVU doesn’t need Pitt to fill a stadium. We can do that on our own.

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