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April 29, 2011

The Costs of Weak Non-Con Basketball

Filed under: Basketball,Numbers — Chas @ 11:36 am

The NCAA released 2010 attendance figures this week (PDF). Pitt was 36th nationally in attendance with an average attendance of 10,843 per game.

As far as the Big East goes here’s how the schools ranked:

Syracuse (#2) — 22,312

Louisville (#3) — 21,832

Marquette (#11) — 15,586

Georgetown (#25) — 12,675

Connecticut (#32) — 11,569

West Virginia (#33) — 11,529

Pitt (#36) — 10,843

Villanova (#38) — 10,511

St. John’s (#57) — 8431

Seton Hall (#62) — 7937

Notre Dame (#64) — 7785

DePaul (#67) — 7676

Cincinnati (#71) — 7344

Providence (#76) — 7043

Rutgers  (#97) — 5602

USF — 4230

Pitt finished 7th in the Big East in attendance. No one is going to come close to matching Syracuse or Louisville. Syracuse has the dome and Louisville has a brand new arena that has capacity of over 20K.

Marquette impresses that they continue to fill the Bradley Center so well. Georgetown and UConn boost their numbers by playing a bunch of games in big arenas. St. John’s may have started winning back fans, but they obviously have a way to go. Same with Cinci. Mildly surprised DePaul did as well as they did. Alumni of other schools showing up? USF, yuck.

The Big East cracked 3 million in total attendance this year: 3,170,540, but finished second to the Big 10 in attendance/game. The NCAA also listed top-30 teams that had the highest attendance for home, road and neutral games. Pitt finished at #29 on that list (damn those early exits in the NCAA and BET).

Now to dig a little into Pitt’s numbers. Rush the Court got me thinking about this with their look at the overall numbers.

Moving on to some other thoughts, who are the schools that generally surprised us with a lack of support (or expected support)?  Removing any of the above from our list, here’s our top eight.

We hate to bust on Pitt at 86.7%, but come on Panther fans… you’re the only hoops game in town and your arena isn’t all that big at 12,508.  Considering your team ended up as a #1 seed last season, how do you not fill that place?

It is surprising to me that Pitt didn’t even crack 90% capacity. The team was top5 or 6 all season. Expectations were high all season. And despite the disappointment of how the season ended, it is hard to argue that the team didn’t meet expectations during the regular season.

One of the factors that worked against that, the non-con. Pitt played a very good schedule, but the games were all neutral sites. I realize that is not uncommon for upper echelon teams, but it really bit Pitt this year for the numbers. Especially with the move of the City Game to the Con as a neutral site.

Here are the attendance figures for the non-con home games:

Nov. 8 — Rhode Island: 9256 *

Nov. 10 — UIC: 9148

Nov. 13 — North Florida: 10,052

Nov. 23 — Robert Morris: 10,121

Nov. 27 – Penn: 10,594

Dec. 4 — Rider: 8719 **

Dec. 8 — Delaware St.: 8520

Dec. 18 — UMES: 9515

Dec. 22 — American: 9489

The total attendance during the 9 non-con games at the Pete was 85,414. That’s an average attendance of 9490.44. Roughly 75.9% of capacity. Not particularly good.

The asterisks, though, do provide some explanation. The home opener which should be a sell-out any other time. Especially since Pitt got to be the opening game of college basketball was poorly planned by ESPN. The Steelers had a Monday Night Football game at the Bengals that same night.

The December 4 game on Saturday was also the same day as the season finale in Pitt football at Cinci. That presumably played a role in dipping the attendance for a Saturday afternoon game.

Looking at a couple other dates. December 18 (UMES) was the last day of Final Exams and December 22 (American) was during Winter Break.

The November 10 (UIC) and December 8 (Del. St.) games were on Wednesdays. There’s no excuse for that except that apparently no one wanted to go to bad non-con games mid-week.

Now for the Big East slate:

Dec. 27 — UConn: 12,725

Jan. 8 — Marquette: 11,438 *

Jan. 15 — Seton Hall: 9236 **

Jan. 17 — Syracuse: 12,925

Jan. 24 — Notre Dame: 12,591

Feb. 5 — Cinci: 12,615

Feb. 16 — USF: 12,519

Feb. 24 — WVU: 12,876

Mar. 5 — Villanova: 12,843

That’s a total Big East attendance figure of 109,768. The average attendance of these games was 12,196.44. That’s roughly 97.5% of capacity. To be honest, it could have been better. Again to the asterisks.

January 8th game with Marquette overlapped with the MBVA Bowl. Obviously it wasn’t well attended down in Birmingham, but you figure it cost Pitt about a 1000 fans between those who actually went and those who stayed home to watch both games.

The January 15 game with Seton Hall was killed because the Steelers had their home playoff game with the Baltimore Ravens. That accounts for being 2000-3000 under the expected numbers. But for those overlaps in the conference slate, Pitt would have probably slightly exceeded the stated capacity on average in the conference side of things.

Roughly speaking Pitt lost about 5000-7000 fans in attendance from football overlaps overall. At best it would have boosted Pitt’s total average attendance to a range of 11,121 to 11,232. That would have bumped Pitt to 34th overall nationally. Sadly, percentage of capacity would have stayed under 90%. Even pretending that Pitt could have/should have had 7000 more fans but for football conflicts, that would have knocked capacity percentage up to 89.8%.

Really, Pitt’s non-con schedule isn’t out of whack with what most programs — especially the upper-tier programs do. Still, most at least try to set up at least on really good true home game each year. Pitt hurt itself  with over-reliance on neutral site games to get good games during the non-con. That cost the program some money in ticket, parking and concession sales.

Pitt fans still need to take some blame. Not for the overlap games, but for the other ones they stayed away from attending. Seems to be some creeping complacency and only willing to show up for the “big” games.

Now for some numbers from other schools, just for fun.

Memphis (#8) — 16,768

Penn St. (#70) — 7457

UCF (#81) — 6370

Temple (#90) — 5925

East Carolina — 4566

TCU — 4285

Duquesne — 3899

Houston — 3281

SMU — 1970

Uh, Houston? You really need to work on that. I know you have some history and any move to the Big East would be based on football, but, uh, no. That’s just sad. The year after making the NCAA and getting rid of Penders (who was not liked by the locals). Get it together.

SMU. No chance.

TCU, there better be a bounce soon.

Temple. So you average less than 6000 per game with a good basketball team? That goes with the whopping 20,515 average for football in what was a really, really good year. Yeah, suffice to say the Big East is not inviting you back anytime soon.

Memphis is impressive… in basketball. In football, yeesh. 23,918 average. Fed Ex money can’t mask that.





you do know that Pitt just makes these numbers up, right? They are worthless

They announce 12,500 for Big East games where there are a thousand empty seats, and they announce 10,000 for North Florida when the place is half empty. Its meaningless. Except to say that the reality is worse than the numbers

Comment by Jamie H 04.29.11 @ 11:48 am

How the heck did Depaul manage to get any fans to come to their games, much less be in the top 100?

Comment by Greg 04.29.11 @ 11:49 am

And Villanova wonders why people are against the move up? Couldn’t even average 9,000 fans at their games and that’s after coming off a national championship season

Comment by Greg 04.29.11 @ 11:53 am

Right Chas, Temple basketball merits hardly any interest at all in Philly. They never play where the Sixers play(?). They would hardly be a replacement for Nova for the Philly market should the BigEast split in two. Even UCF, which has only been D1 for like 15 years outdraws Temple hoops(And UCF has no basketball tradition like Temple) and UCF football doubles Temple’s football attendance.

Other than UCF the other possible entries into the BigEast(should they split) are pretty horrid in hoops.

As for Pitt, yes complacency has set in to a certain extent. Whats noticeable as well at The Pete, is besides the student section, the vast majority of the fans do not do much cheering at all. It’s like the A & B sections of a Penguin game, these people are like a bunch of stiffs.
I don’t know what it is, they expect to be entertained, they’re too high & mighty to cheer, whatever, but it’s piss poor. If you’re not going to get involved in the game and egg your team on to win, JUST STAY THE FREAK HOME !

Comment by melvinbennett 04.29.11 @ 12:33 pm

Oh and sell your ticket to someone who actually would enjoy being at the game and someone who would actually cheer for the Home Team ! Stiffs need not apply.

Comment by melvinbennett 04.29.11 @ 12:35 pm

I think I’m in agreement with melvinb about the fans: I also wonder how much the “complacency” has to do with more and more priority seating emphasis being placed on donation levels. I know I’m awfully biased because I was bumped into the upper deck after being in the 3rd row behind students since the Pete’s opening, but there were many games– conference play included — that things seemed sparse in the lower bowl. And I was certainly disgusted when I saw my old seats go unfilled for the first five or six games of the season, especially when I has asked the ticket office beforehand what I could do to keep those seats and was basically laughed at. Oh well– I guess they have to do what they have to do, but things are definitely not the same as they used to be, beyond one or two Syracuse/UConn games each year.

Comment by Jason 04.29.11 @ 12:51 pm

Congrats to Jon Baldwin for being selected in the 1rst Round by the KC Chiefs. Zeise’s PG article manages to spin it in a negative light however.(surprise, surprise)
As he mentions that Pitt has only had so many number 1 picks since 1990, check it out.

“Baldwin becomes just the 6th Pitt player since 1990 to be selected in the first round, joining Jeff Otah (2008), Darelle Revis (2007), Larry Fitzgerald (2004), Rueben Brown (1995) and Sean Gilbert (1992) in that club.”

He then goes even farther and suggests we haven’t even had that many since 1980:

“Pitt has also had only 19 guys selected in the first round since 1980 and Baldwin becomes the 20th.”

If you care to read the whole POS article, here it is:
link to post-gazette.com

Guess he never saw that Yahoo Sports/Rivals article last year, that had Pitt among the Top 5 of all colleges since 1980 with the players that performed the best in the NFL. He must have missed that one. Go figure.

I guess it’s always a good time to bash Pitt sports at the PG. Also to note, not a word or an iota of a word on the Front Page of the PG, nor on the Front WebPage of the Sports section of the PG concerning Pitt’s Baldwin being drafted in the 1rst round. And he didn’t even have to ‘Sneak In’. Oh if not for our dear friends over at the PG what on earth would we do.

HTP & FUPG

Comment by melvinbennett 04.29.11 @ 1:16 pm

I’m not reqally worried about any potential BE team’s home basketball attendance since I would expect it to improve when it jois the BE … except maybe for Temple. Just remember that the any new members will be invited primarily due to its football program.

I would like to know TCU’s home FB average. I believe UCF’s average was around 40,000 while Villanova did not exceed 12,500 since that is about its stadium’s capacity

Comment by wbb 04.29.11 @ 1:18 pm

I first saw the top level numbers on the Nova Blog last night. I see the guy still hasn’t answered your question about why he excluded Pitt and WVU from the Top 50 list, or owned up to being soooo bitter to the point of losing whatever shred of objectivity he used to have.

Comment by Brian in BK 04.29.11 @ 1:33 pm

To make it perfectly clear in this line:
“Baldwin becomes just the 6th Pitt player since 1990 to be selected in the first round, joining Jeff Otah (2008), Darelle Revis (2007), Larry Fitzgerald (2004), Rueben Brown (1995) and Sean Gilbert (1992) in that club.”

The word “just” could have been omitted. It was Zeise’s choice to add “just”. This is clearly an attempt to belittle Pitt.

Then this: (not satisfied, he takes it a step farther)
“Pitt has also had only 19 guys selected in the first round since 1980 and Baldwin becomes the 20th.”

Again the word “only” could have not been used.
Again it’s used at his option in an attempt to belittle Pitt and it’s football teams’ accomplishments. 20 players drafted in the 1rst Round in the last 30 years is nothing to be ashamed of. That is better than most schools playing D1 college football. And considering the whole decade of the 1990’s was pretty much a wipeout it’s damn good.

Again this is taking a positive (having a player chosen in the 1rst Round) and spinning it into a negative. And then the kicker is, using two examples and trying to promote that as being way less than average, when it isn’t at all. It’s really cheap journalism.

Comment by melvinbennett 04.29.11 @ 1:34 pm

The season is actually sold out, right?? Am I wrong about this?? They’re talking about bodies attending the games, correct??

Comment by Dan 04.29.11 @ 4:11 pm

Zeise is only worse, when he goes on t.v., or radio. Sounds like a bumbling, fumbling yinzer, sitting at the corner of some Southside bar. Horrible, bordering on embarrassing. Just my opinion! One day, he was on the radio, with Fralic and Hillgrove, I thought I dropped LSD or something listening to those three!!! Hey, I’m sorry, Bill was great in his day, Fralic, great player and alum, but, good God!! Throw Zeise in, I needed sub-titles to even know what they were talking about!!! LMAO!!!

Comment by Dan 04.29.11 @ 4:17 pm

Just a thought here: Maybe the ennui witnessed by basketball season ticket holders is a result of the Pitt basketball program’s holding pattern as an early-exit NCAA team. Success in college basketball is success after the regular season and everybody knows it. Pitt is a little over 500, maybe 650 in that department. A breakthrough NCAA run would certainly reinvigorate the basketball program and fans who keep thinking, “Well, where is this going to end up?” We used to think the Big East tournament was a distraction. Now Pitt loses early in that one, too.

Comment by TonyinHouston 04.30.11 @ 2:41 am

Jason, I am one of those people. Have had football tix and basketball tix forever. Donate money every year (not enough I guess), and me and my buddy got calls last year, saying we would need to donate $1900.00 more, or we would be moved to section behind the hoop. (I thought 1900.00 was kind of an odd number).

Now, my football tix, since 67′, were always in my Dad’s name, (football letterman), until he passed away in 2008. Guess I should have lied and just sent the check, now, I’m at the bottom I guess. Told this whole story to several people, bottom line, “you need to donate more”. See ya, games are on t.v..

Have had other issues. 2 seats in football club box. Tried to get 4 more, all kinds of b.s., I said, there are only 500 of us in the club box, with 1000 empty seats every game except ND and WVU, don’t you at least want to make 60 bucks, 80 bucks oer ticket, whatever, on four more tix? “We can’t do that”, “I’ll have to check with so-so”, and on and on.

Finally, just went on stub hub and got all 4 tix for 50 bucks. Weren’t close to us, but, since no one is around us, we were all together.

I was just waiting for an usher to come down, and say, “those aren’t their seats, they have to move”, with 500 empty seats as far as the eye can see.

I think I may have been typing this from behind bars, had that happened.

Anyhow Jason, over the many years, Pitt has never been known as fan friendly or convenient for ticket holders. I’m not talking about fan friendly at the game, or for the kids, talking about the ticket office being able to make fan friendly decisions. It’s like the government down there, just layers and layers of sheeple.

Anyhow, they asket to come down and pick our seats 10 years ago, every cool, until my Dad passed, got football tix in my own name, suddenly, I wasn’t such a big Pitt fan!!

Comment by Dan 05.01.11 @ 11:21 am

p.s. I paid for the football tix since late 80’s, we all just liked having them in my Dad’s name. And yes, I explained this to three different people. One of them, bless her heart, great Pitt employee, even admitted, with this system, ya, you should have lied and just sent your check under your fathers application. She was sorry, but, nothing else she could do. Oh, I’m not being sarcastic about her, she really understood the situation.

Comment by Dan 05.01.11 @ 11:24 am

Sorry, wasn’t clear, trying to get 4 club seats, was for just one lousy Rutgers game, not a whole season or anything. Wasn’t like I was trying to get club seats for people, for the season, or make them a member without donating. One lousy friggin game, with empty seats for as far as the eye could see!!! Protocol, you know!!!

Comment by Dan 05.01.11 @ 11:29 am

Thanks for sharing the pain, Dan. Funny you mention the club seat story: the reason we have four club football tickets now is that I took my wife and parents to a game a few years ago with stubhub club tickets, and my parents insisted we get season club tickets from then on out. Now as prices (and required donations) keep getting higher and higher, I wonder if it’s just easier and cheaper to go to a few select games through stubhub, etc. Sure, may not get ND tickets, but from what I’ve seen they’re easy to be had for most other contests…
And with more and more hoops tickets becoming available most games these days, it would save a heck of alot to just pick and choose there, as well. In fact, I know personally last season I had people offer me free tickets for at least five or six games. Hate to do this, but in these times it’s certainly becoming an option.

Comment by Jason 05.02.11 @ 10:57 am

You’re right Jason. This doesn’t change my fervor or loyalty for Pitt, or Pitt athletics, and I’m sure it doesn’t yours. Kinda like the stories I hear, ( I don’t know if true, someone can confirm or deny), but, still, at the Pirates games, when there are only a few thousand people there, and some people try to move down to be closer to the field, the ushers still toss em’ out??? Again, I have no problem with that, if there is a crowd, seats are tight, and no one hates its worse than me, to walk up to your seat, and someone is out of position.

That’s not what we’re talking about. Apparently, the ushers at the games, know, if there were no tix sold in a particular section, and yet, if they see a couple, sitting in an empty section, even in the 6th or 7th inning, they tell them to show their tix and make them move.

Maybe this is an urban legend, but, I did hear stories that in a game that went past midnight, extra innings, only a few thousand, if that, left in PNC, they had the ushers still checking tix of people that moved down. Talk about customer service.

I’m all for “rules are rules”, but, there is also a thing called, “taking care of a customer”, especially when it causes no harm.

Anyhow, still have my football tix, can’t beat the club seating. I will tell you, in case you ever have family or friends coming in, I even got club tix on stub hub for Notre Dame. Got 4 for 200.00, and the guy threw in his parking pass too.

Looking forward to the season more than I have in many years, I’m pumped, haven’t let some bad customer service experiences taint my feeling for Pitt or the teams. Hail to Pitt, have a good day!

Comment by Dan 05.02.11 @ 11:50 am

Hey, one more anectdote Jason. The reason I got the club tix when Heinz was built, allthough having some brews and watching college football can’t be beat, was, because, my Dad I spoke of earlier, was in his late 70’s. I figured, during the cold games, he could go inside and warm up.

Ha ha, in the four or five years he was able to attend, into his early 80’s, he rarely left his outdoor seat, and never because of the cold, but, I was always running inside!!! ha ha LMAO

They don’t make em’ like that generation anymore!!
Good day to you!!

Comment by Dan 05.02.11 @ 11:53 am

Hey Dan, I feel your pain when it comes to dealing with the ticket office. However, one suggestion. Several years ago I requested my Father’s name on our season tickets be changed to our Family name. Now all of our points continue to accrue, yet I am the one that pays. It’s silly, you should be able to pass down your points to your next of kin automatically.

Good Luck.

Comment by ECH 05.02.11 @ 4:49 pm

Thanks ECH, ya, guess I should have done that. I guess I could for future generations of Panther fans. After he passed away, I called to tell them, should have just wrote the check and sent it with his app. Old news, no hard feelings. Frankly, love the Pete’s atmosphere, but, 11 or 12 games was too many for me, couldn’t make a lot of the weeknight games, ending up giving half away.

Then one year, I paid, but split with a guy. When we divided them up, didn’t want to be a heel, ended up giving him most of the good games.

Hey, no one has answered, or I missed it, aren’t the Pitt hoops games sold out for the year?? I mean, I know, the attendance Chas is talking about is how many people show up. I thought it was the hardest ticket in Pgh. to get a few years ago, season sold out, waiting list????

Comment by Dan 05.02.11 @ 8:36 pm

Thanks for some quality points there. I am kind of new to online , so I printed this off to put in my file, any better way to go about keeping track of it then printing?

Comment by Merlene Melott 05.06.11 @ 3:44 pm

nice post. thanks.

Comment by Marylynn Carmell 05.07.11 @ 4:08 pm

nice post. thanks.

Comment by Nevada Curra 05.08.11 @ 3:09 pm

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