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April 15, 2011

You know, there’s something about the Big East and the member programs that continually miss opportunities, moments and chances. I don’t know how or why, but as much as anything else the history of the Big East is about moments that could transform or change the entire face of programs and the conference — and waiting until after the moment has passed to make a move.

If Villanova had made the decision anytime before 2010, they would be in or on their way to being a full Big East member. The stadium would have been less of an issue to the members simply because the Big East football schools really, really, really wanted that 9th football member.

Up until the point last fall when it came out that TCU would join the Big East, the only way it seemed that the Big East would add that 9th member in football it would be from within. The basketball schools seemed intent on blocking other options, and there was no slam dunk option out there.

Instead Villanova was overly cautious and waited until the deal with TCU came together. At that point, the Big East football schools had the chance to take a step back and really, really look at Villanova and their plans. A closer examination and the lack of an air of desperation put it in a different light.

It dates back to the very founding of the Big East. One of the major reasons the Big East was formed was because Penn State and Joe Paterno began aggressively pursuing the ethereal Eastern sports conference. It was highly flawed and doomed to fail since it sought to create a conference but exclude football revenue from any sharing. Still it was enough to spook schools like Providence and Seton Hall about the future. They purused the idea of a basketball based league. Syracuse was convinced and Boston College backstabbed Holy Cross by joining without them (the Big East only wanted one school from Boston, and BC and Holy Cross had agreed that they should both be included or not at all).

Fear of football and the possibility of a competing Eastern conference, led the Big East to offer an invite to Pitt. When Paterno finally gave up the dream and sought to join the Big East in the early 80s, the Big East membership rejected them. The basketball schools still feared the influence of football interests with a conference membership that would have included Pitt, Syracuse, BC and Penn State.

It isn’t pleasant to say, but Syracuse, BC and Pitt blew it. They were short-sighted about the importance of conference affiliation in football. While Paterno’s plan was unfeasible economically for a true conference, the failure to push harder for Penn State in the Big East or to try and negotiate a better revenue set-up for a full sports conference has done more long-term damage to Syracuse and Pitt than anyone else.

Really a watershed moment that haunted the Big East since. Every action taken by the Big East with membership since then has been a reaction to football interests while trying to keep the focus on basketball.

The move by Penn State to the Big Ten several years later shook Eastern college football tremendously. Pitt, Syracuse and BC suddenly found themselves part of a dwindling and weakening cadre of independent football programs. Especially with conferences cutting TV deals for football after the US Supreme Court busted the NCAA control.

The Big East wanted to keep their basketball club intact so they put together the Big East football conference in 1991: Pitt, Syracuse and BC with Miami, WVU, VT, Temple and Rutgers. Except for Miami, the other football programs were treated like junior members. Temple was completely blocked by Villanova, while Rutgers and West Virginia had to wait until the fifth year before becoming full Big East members. Virginia Tech didn’t get full membership until 2000.

Notre Dame was given a lifeline for all sports except football in 1995 — yet another move that missed an opportunity. Allowing ND to preserve its football independence while playing in a major conference.

Meanwhile on the football side, little was done after 1991, except periodically encourage UConn to think about moving to 1-A football. So what if the Big East was the smallest football conference in the the BCA then BCS? While membership moves were done to placate the football side, nothing else was done to grow or build the football side by the conference. Treating it more like a cash register but little else. Letting discontent grow because of the conflicting interests. Those conflicting interests seem so amazing as the football revenue was so outstripping anything the basketball could produce.

By the time the ACC raid took place, the Big East had nothing to offer Miami to stay. Even an offer to effectively go to a modified Paterno-esque revenue system to let Miami keep more money was not enough.

When the Big East finally splits, expect more of the same. Big East offices not seeing it coming. The basketball schools surprised and unaware of the discontent of the football schools.





Chas, Thanks for an enlightening recap of BE history. I was not aware or had forgotten the attempted paterno revenue grab and the later psu attempt to join the BE.

Re. the missed opportunities, all the cliches come to mind.
Hindsight is 20-20.
If if’s and but’s were candy and nuts…
Etc., etc.

We can only go forward from where we stand.

Comment by dock71 04.15.11 @ 3:08 pm

Like i said before we need to split we have nine now add Memphis and Temple that helps to keep us a first class basketball talent plus keeps foot print in philly . Than add UCF because of the talent that is in that state there you go 12 teams what could be better.

Comment by FRANKCAN 04.15.11 @ 3:08 pm

I always find it amusing that our “friends” to the northeast of Pittsburgh always conveniently forget about Paterno’s insistence that the football revenue not be shared in his proposed Eastern Conference. My memory is that Pitt and Syracuse actually did push back against this, but PSU stood firm that they did not want to fully share football revenue. Could Pitt have pushed harder? Probably, but given Paterno’s stubborn behavior on so many other issues, I don’t know if that would have ever been resolved. It is true (and sad) that Pitt’s administration at the time lacked any clear vision of the future of college football.

Comment by Pantherman13 04.15.11 @ 3:37 pm

I wish the BE would tell ND join the football conference or hit the road!

Comment by WLAT and the Big Beat 04.15.11 @ 3:44 pm

BTW, Nova fans apparently are busy convincing themselves that the ACC really wants them, and that they should “show” the Big East by joining the ACC. They must smoke some good stuff out there on the mainline!

Comment by Pantherman13 04.15.11 @ 3:49 pm

Let Nova go whould take temple who is football ready right now and just as good most years in basketball.

Comment by FRANKCAN 04.15.11 @ 4:04 pm

IS JJ Richardson leaving the bb team?

Just saw something come over the wire.

Comment by WLAT and the Big Beat 04.15.11 @ 4:52 pm

Chas,
As we look back at failed decisions of days gone by, we wish people had made better decisions about the long-term future of the conference and member schools. So what’s wrong with looking at UCF right now in terms of long-term potential for the conference? (Sorry to beat a half-dead horse here.)

Comment by Lollard 04.15.11 @ 4:53 pm

yes JJ is transferring

Comment by OntarioLett'sGoPitt 04.15.11 @ 5:07 pm

link to post-gazette.com

I like the part that JJ decided to transfer (and not decided by Jamie). A pattern has been established.

Comment by BigGuy 04.15.11 @ 5:11 pm

On big east report JJ Richardson will transfer out of pitt.

Comment by FRANKCAN 04.15.11 @ 5:12 pm

Regarding Richardson, that is interesting. With Bond prepping and the very real possibility that J. Johnson will have to prep, Pitt may go from 2 over the scholarship limit to 1 under.

Best of luck to JJ. He plays hard and did whatever was asked. Hopefully he’ll get into a program where he can get some playing time because it probably was not going to happen at Pitt with Taylor, Robinson, Birch, Zanna and maybe even Gilbert ahead of him.

Comment by Pantherman13 04.15.11 @ 5:14 pm

From the P-G:

“I believe this, and I told [Tino] this — if he becomes a disciple of our offense, meaning he disciplines himself and totally believes in what we are doing and he executes and just distributes the ball and just executes the system — I believe he has a chance to surprise a lot of people.”

Wow! I wonder if TG thoroughly thought thru his statement. It seems like TG sometimes will really, really go out on a limb with his predictions.

Comment by BigGuy 04.15.11 @ 5:19 pm

Big, we’ll find out come September who’s drunk the Kool Aid: Tino, Graham….or both

Comment by steve 04.15.11 @ 5:40 pm

I know some didn’t think he was terrific, but I always like Richardson and thought he should/could have played more (I thought he could have been a guy that really played better as he played more and was comfortable). He always gave 100%, could hedge a screen 50x better than other bigs, had a soft shooting touch. Just a little undersized.

Comment by OntarioLett'sGoPitt 04.15.11 @ 6:15 pm

I am old enough to remember the days when a player would keep his scholarship if he worked hard, maintained passing grades and exerted good citizenship. But maybe I am reading too much into JJ’s transfer. Maybe he was not being pushed but is questioning the amount of playing time that he can expect.

Comment by BigGuy 04.15.11 @ 6:27 pm

One correction to the Big East history lesson. Penn St applied to the Big East before Pitt was even a memeber of the BE . They were rejected because of the poor basketball program and lack of a basketball history of their own.
Paterno angry over BE snub went after Syracuse and BC to form his football conference expecting Pitt and WVU to jump at his revenue deal of no sharing of football money. Syracuse and BC went back to the Big East and said if Pitt was invited to the BE then there would be no threat to pull the Big East apart. Pitt was among the better Easten Eight programs. And that is why Pitt was invited to the BE.

Comment by Marty 04.15.11 @ 6:39 pm

Aren’t these missed moments a microcosm of Pitt sports? Heck, just a couple years ago, we were a FG short of going to the Final 4 and a botched xpoint from a BCS berth

Comment by wbb 04.15.11 @ 6:42 pm

I believe that not forming the all-sports league was a ositive and negative. The leaue would probably be better in footbal than the BE, but not that much more since Va Tech and Miami may have never entered and same as Louisville and Cincy. But for sure, our basketball league wouldn’t have held a candle to the strength of the BE basketball league … so not joining the BE was not a disaster IMO

Comment by wbb 04.15.11 @ 6:48 pm

Btw, Dokish is reporting that the new basketball assistant is a guy from Marshall.

Comment by Mike 04.15.11 @ 7:16 pm

That’s quite interesting Mike. Because that’s where former Pitt asst. Tom Herrion went and became Head Coach last year. By the way Herrion was one of the better if not best asst. coach Dixon has had. He was missed this year.

Comment by melvinbennett 04.15.11 @ 8:23 pm

While the BigEast has provided Pitt with an opportunity to establish a very good basketball program and hasn’t done much for the football program where Pitt is below .500 all time in the BigEast Conf. And I’m thinking the $300 Million spent on The Pete had more to do with our basketball program getting very good than the BigEast. Pitt made a tremendous investment in cash to become relevant in basketball on a yearly basis. Had we been in say the Big 10 and spent that money Pitt would have got the same results except I believe we would have dominated and won more titles in the Big 10 over the last 10 years than the BigEast.

Football on the other hand, has not flourished at all in the BigEast, again being below .500 since we joined for football in 1991 and that is far below our overall winning percentage of 59%.
For that reason alone I’d like to see Pitt and the other football members split off. It’s been nice knowing you BigEast but we’re off to bigger and better things. One small caveat, if the football onlys split off, ND might be more receptive to joining since there’ fewer teams to share revenue with. A conf. with Pitt, Syracuse, Uconn, WVU, Rutgers, TCU, Louisville and the others and say adding Houston and UCF could command a pretty big TV contract as long as ND was part of the deal. Maybe sweeten the pot a little for ND.

Comment by melvinbennett 04.15.11 @ 8:38 pm

Bill Barton is the coach being reported as Pitt’s next asst. He only spent one year under Tom Herrion at Marshall, it’s sort of a homecoming for Barton as he coached for 3 years under Everhart at Duquesne. Could we be in for more of an uptempo offense? I can only hope. More importanly this guy was the former coach at Notre Dame Prep, so that could be a nice pipeline for future recruits.

Comment by melvinbennett 04.15.11 @ 8:46 pm

Bill Barton 3 years under Everhart that does not do mutch to lite my fire can he recruit what makes this a good choice tell me what do you know? I think slice would have been better a known coach and a good recruiter .

Comment by FRANKCAN 04.15.11 @ 9:28 pm

Barton in 3 years with Duquesne did not bring one player from Notre Dame Prep to Duquesne. so what good is it that he was the coach there. I am open to your thoughts show me that this is a good deal.

Comment by FRANKCAN 04.15.11 @ 9:43 pm

The recruits of Marshall were nothing special this last year so if he brought no one to the dukes and know one really good to Marshall what is the big deal with this coach Barton.

Comment by FRANKCAN 04.15.11 @ 9:54 pm

Duquesne and Marshall had some good players and at Pitt he will have access to even better prospects. If he’s good enough for Dixon, Herrion, and Everhart, three coaches with excellent reputations, then he should be good enough for us.

Comment by Mike 04.15.11 @ 10:28 pm

Generally speaking, Notre Dame Prep’s div 1 quality players aren’t going to Duquesne no matter who is the coach/assistant coach. Barton was very highly regarded at Duquesne and was considered a big loss when he left.

Comment by Pantherman13 04.15.11 @ 10:35 pm

BigGuy read link to bebballreportpitt.blogspot.com
It’s Dokish’s post on the roster being in flux for the hoops team. He talks about how this was JJ Richardson’s decision and he was definitely not pushed out.

Comment by OntarioLett'sGoPitt 04.15.11 @ 10:39 pm

Ontario, thanks for the link. I yield to Dorkish. Richardson’s home state of Texas is a long way from Pittsburgh, especially if one is not seeing game action.

Comment by BigGuy 04.16.11 @ 12:59 am

Obviously, there’s a lot of history to this saga… but, I do want to state that Pitt, Louisville, and Syracuse have done more to ruin the BE FB Brand than anybody in recent years.

Pitt (constant debacles on national TV), Syracuse (Program went anemic) and Louisville (Never lived up to the hype)…

I put no blame on WVU. They have done MORE than their share to become an alpha dog and brand builder in this conference, have won multiple BCS games against good competition, and was one game away from a National Championship (13-9).

I put no blame on UCONN, Rutgers, Cincy. The factthey are even relevant is because of the three aforementioned teams allow them to be. In no world should UCONN or RUTGERS or Cincy be winning a BCS bid over PItt, Syracuse, WVU or Louisville.

I blame USF a little for being a Louisville Light…some high expectations, could be the next Florida, yadda yadda, then always choking and gagging.

And if you take a look at it, we really have no one to blame for the BEF brand stinking more than ourselves.

Comment by Pauly P 04.16.11 @ 9:01 am

Couldn’t agree with you more Pauly P.!!! The Big East, every year, has moments to shine against OOC games against the other 5 BCS conferences, and always craps themselves, especially Pitt on national t.v.

Excellent analysis. Pitt on t.v., Syracuse disappearing, and Louisville was gonna be the next U. of Miami!!!!

WVU has done more than it’s share beating Oklahoma, Georgia, Georgia Tech and Auburn over the past years. They’ve done their part.

Comment by Dan 04.16.11 @ 10:12 am

Pauly, again, this year, it’s up to the Big East teams. Will they ever be regarded as a top football conference, of course not, but some wins against other BCS conferences would take some of the “laughing stock” away a little bit.

2011

Cincy————Tennessee, NC.St
UCONN————Vanderbilt, Iowa St.
Louisville——-Kentucky, North Carolina
Pitt————-Iowa, ND, Utah
Rutgers———-North Carolina, Navy
S.Fla————N.D., Miami
Syracuse———Wake Forest, Southern Cal
WVU————–Maryland, LSU

There are 17 games or so, that is up to the teams to gain a little respect for the conference. Up to them and no one else.

Comment by Dan 04.16.11 @ 10:24 am

You are so right Pauly, the Big East will be relevant again as soon as those 3 programs, in addition to continued success from WVU, get it together and it it appears that that may be happening now. I don’t know how I feel about the TCU addition. They are going to be isolated like Miami was and if say Patterson leaves, will they still be competitive?

Comment by Alex 04.16.11 @ 11:52 am

TCU could end up being the Texas version of Louisville. And if Syracuse and Pitt continue to blunder their way to 7-9 win seasons, then we really be no closer to building a BEF brand than we were when we were courted all those years back.

I’m trying to stay positive for the TG era at Pitt, but he needs to make the level jump sooner rather than later if we expect to have a true Football Conference.

All that High Octane horseshit will quickly fall to deaf ears if he takes his team down to Iowa and loses 24 to 3….on a national TV broadcast.

Why? Because we have NO equity with the national perception. Let’s hope 2011 will change that perception…

Comment by Pauly P 04.16.11 @ 12:24 pm

@FRANKCAN

Barton in 3 years with Duquesne did not bring one player from Notre Dame Prep to Duquesne. so what good is it that he was the coach there. I am open to your thoughts show me that this is a good deal.
Comment by FRANKCAN 04.15.11 @ 9:43 pm

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think schools like Marshall and Duquesne are in the running for the same type of players that Notre Dame Prep usually puts out. We are currently recruiting 2 players from Notre Dame Prep, one is Brandon Knight’s cousin, Myles Davis….no he doesn’t play the trumpet but he’s supposed to have a mean game and he’s so good he’s turns his back to the crowd.

Comment by melvinbennett 04.16.11 @ 1:15 pm

Oh and Pitt did chip in with a few wins over other BCS teams in non-con football games in the last few years. It wasn’t a complete wipeout as some in here like to portray. Now if your memory only looks at 2010, yes the non-con was pretty much a wipeout, but we did beat Kentucky of the supposed great SEC who had only lost to national champion Auburn 34-37 and should have actually won the game. And in previous most recent years in the non-con, Pitt had beaten UNC, Iowa, UVA, ND several times, Navy several times and Texas A & M. So in the 2000’s Pitt was nowhere near as pathetic as Syracuse in terms of non-con wins, but we were in the 1990’s

Comment by melvinbennett 04.16.11 @ 1:32 pm

Oh and I wouldn’t be wishing for Syracuse to return to National Prominence. For that could relegate Pitt back to 1990’s status which coincidentally was the last time Syracuse was consistently good. And if you noticed when Pitt started going downhill in the middle 1980’s, Syracuse went from bad to very good starting in 1987 and went on to have 12 very good seasons while Pitt went thru a coaching circus and became irrelevant (with a few blips in the late 80’s & ’97, but basically irrelevant) until about 2000. Coinciding with Syracuse’s last really good year in 2001, so as far as I’m concerned let the Cuse stay down and since they play in the Carrier Dump that’s where they should be.

Comment by melvinbennett 04.16.11 @ 1:52 pm

Great article of a subject that continues to occupy Big East football fans, Chas. However, Frankthetank continues to say that Big East basketball brings in more cash then football and has the metro areas with the highest viewership. He argues the split will never happen.

Comment by TonyinHouston 04.16.11 @ 2:45 pm

The fact that Big East basketball brings in more revenue than Big East football only underscores how mismanaged the league is.

Comment by Pantherman13 04.16.11 @ 10:43 pm

[…] is a new Post at Pitt Blather Permalink » A Brief Big East History of Missed Moments. Filed under: Big East,Conference,General Stupidity — Chas @ 2:33 pm. You know, there’s […]


Barton brought Damien Saunders, A-10 defensive poy to Duquesne.

Comment by alcofan 04.17.11 @ 11:02 am

SU and BC tried to get PSU invited into the BE in 1982, but fell one vote short. Pitt wasn’t invited until 1983. How could Pitt have pushed harder for PSU membership when they weren’t even a member yet themselves?

SU and BC tried to negotiate for better revenue sharing, but Paterno wouldn’t hear of it. JoePa wanted revenue sharing for all sports BUT football. SU sells 25,000 tickets for a basketball game and had to share that ticket revenue with Penn State, while PSU sells 100,000 tickets to a football game and keeps all that money? Wasn’t going to happen.

JoePA’s greed was the only reason why his all-sports conference never got off the ground. He wanted all his football cake, and he wanted to eat everyone else’s basketball cake too. He might have strong-armed Temple and Rutgers, but SU and BC wouldn’t agree to JoePa’s unfair terms … and neither did Pitt.

Comment by DanteAmore 04.19.11 @ 4:55 pm

DA.

Had to check some history. PSU and Paterno were considered for a membership invite before Pitt — but not from PSU’s side. It came from some Big East members that felt it best to get PSU in the league while he was still talking about his Eastern Conference. Instead, Pitt was invited in 1982.

The Supreme Court broke the NCAA Control over the TV contracts in 1984. Paterno pushed for his Eastern conference — which failed miserably because of the greed you mention. Then he sought the Big East membership. Interestingly, one of the schools that actively opposed Penn State for membership: Syracuse.

link to pittblather.com

Comment by Chas 04.19.11 @ 8:01 pm

The Bible has been interpreted to justify such evil practices as, for instance, slavery, the slaughter of prisoners of war, the sadistic murders of women believed to be witches, capital punishment for hundreds of offenses, polygamy, and cruelty to animals. It has been used to encourage belief inside the grossest superstition and to discourage the free of charge teaching of scientific truths. We have to in no way forget that both great and evil flow from the Bible. It is subsequently not above criticism.

Comment by MBT Anti Shoes 04.20.11 @ 3:48 am

[…] at Lost Lettermen echoes some earlier points I made that Villanova may have missed their window, because now the Big East football doesn’t need Villanova with TCU in the fold. It’s […]


[…] denial have been the hallmark of the Big East basketball schools. Last year I detailed some of the big missed opportunities of the Big East in making the conference more viable and strengthening it. The consistent issue was that the […]


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