I’m pulling for VCU at this point. Probably the kiss of death, but what the hell. Least evil team at this point for me.
About the only way I can find myself pulling for Butler is if they play Kentucky on Monday.
Kentucky is one of those teams I find easy to actively root against.
UConn. Well, there is the whole Big East solidarity thing, but we aren’t in the SEC, and those ridiculous S-E-C chants.
I hate destiny, fate and all that other crap. The fact that Butler and UConn could very well end up with those stories written if they win it all would render Pitt merely a footnote in those stories. I may be drinking hard(er) tonight.
link to pittsburghpanthers.com
Anyway .. as I’m sure we all know, our two post-season losses were in the final second tothe teams in the national championship game
And, Calhoun just mentioned Pitt calling them one of the best teams in America in his post game interview. I now hate him just a little less.
Tony: Have you seen Dokish’s suggested starting lineup for next year? I think you’ll like it and his comments…
link to bebballreportpitt.blogspot.com
Note that Mack scored 31 that night and has averaged 20 pts in the tourney while Howard has averaged close to a double-double
I would add on to your comment by saying that we also lacked a transitional game and did not score on fast breaks. I went back to our last 10 games and tried to find an example of where we ran a fast break, and every time the ball was held up and the offense was set. So many times, we would have two on one scenarios, and our man would slow up and set the offense. That’s all fine and dandy for your offensive efficiency numbers, but anyone that has played the game knows, the transition games is a much easier way to score.
Were the players not good in transition and turn the ball over too much for JD’s liking…hence the no-fastbreak mandate? I don’t know.
Re: Dokish
I could see Birch starting over Taylor at the 5 before I ever see Nasir coming of the bench. Taylor, to me, is a guy that needs pushing. Plus, Birch learning the 4 will take time whereas the 5 puts him in a position to maximize his strengths. Nasir is too important on other facets of the team to have him come in as a sub spark…IMHO
Stick to football. The numbers support my theory. Mack had the game of his life against Pitt. Even if he is averaging 20 for the tournament, he scored 30 against Pitt. That is 50% more than 20 and the Pitt game is in the average. Howard is a scrappy player that has a nice athletic frame. He wouldn’t be all big east.
So the numbers support your theory?? Yea, the theory that you are a biased, shortminded person who thinks that Pitt and the BE are be-all and end-all of college BB.
I think he’ll push Taylor for minutes, which is a good thing for Pitt and for Taylor, and be eased into the 4 over the course of the season. If Taylor steps up as we hope, Birch will still spell him, but he’ll see more and more time at the 4. That still has Birch on the floor for major minutes, which is the most important thing. People put too much emphasis on starting, when it’s the amount of PT that really matters.
I only pointed out Dokish’s post to Tony C. because it agreed with what he thought, so I figured he’d like it.
Omar: I think you and wbb are both right. As a group Brown, Gibbs and Wanamaker are probably better than Mack, Howard and Vanzant. However, Mack will get drafted well ahead of any Pitt player. He’s the best player of the bunch, and he played his best game against the best team. That’s what the PTPs, as Dickie V calls them, do.
P.S. (And we complain about how our free throw shooting costs us games.)
To the discussion about who plays the 4 or 5 for Pitt next year. My worry is exactly what my last post was about. From the choices that are listed, none of them are going to be able to hit a 3 pointer. If thats the case, our other 3 players better be consistent, knockdown shooters, with another coming off the bench. The sad part is I am a firm believer that shooting can be taught even at this stage of their careers, but for whatever reason its not getting done. Especially for the bigger guys who , if they happen to shoot 3’s , will probably be wide open 3’s and ones that dont have to create. Look at Howard for Butler. Everyone knows he is capable of hitting a 3 and he gets wide open looks many times. At this point, Id settle for baby steps and would like to see Nasir Robinson foul shooting technique not make me want to vomit.
Question for y’all…
What do you guys think about the 2 position next year? Assuming Ashton comes back, do you guys think CWright and Lamar can/should be the second option? Are they ready? Or, do you think JD will create a lineup that is forward centric when Ashton is not on shooting (or out of the game because fouls, injury, etc.)? I’m a little worried that our threats from long range are going to be limited next year. Someone mentioned earlier that our long range threat needs to come more from the 4 & 5….I don’t see us built to do that anytime soon. THoughts?
Wright will get some PT, but it will probably be in the <10 MPG range.
Birch has the raw materials to be a good outside threat, a nice shooting motion at the foul line. Depends on how long he stays as to whether or not Pitt ever benefits. Durand Johnson is supposedly a good shooting wing. At 6'7" he could move to the 4, especially if he's still growing, and be that threat. All speculative of course.
But those guys are hard to come by and its really difficult to get a 4 or 5 to work outside shooting into his game at this stage. There’s just other elements they need to focus on.
But two key points that let to Pitt stagnating:
1) Agreed we needed more consistent shooters other than Gibbs. We didn’t have that, but we only need it at positions 1 – 3.
2) Part of the problem was we had NO inside-out game. Its largely because McGhee didn’t have the hands to catch/dish passes and wasn’t much of a scorer. Nas, outside zone-breaking, didn’t have much offense to offer either except where plays broke down.
A Taylor-Birch front court is a completely different world, and should hopefully open up the outside shooting a good bit. And, I’m hoping Moore/Patterson work on their outside shooting all summer.
As far as the 4 or 5 shooting threes, how about a five-ten foot jump shot or just some moves around the hoop. How about just catching the ball 3 out of four times. I think with Gibbs,Woodall,Moore and Patterson we should have options from the three line.
As said above, fastbreak points and points in the paint were sorely needed against the more competitive teams. If Taylors knees are ok and with Moore and Birch, we should have a lot more play above the rim.
I am not sure who replaces Wanny as assists leader probably Woodall.
Pitt’s player scored 37 points in 2 tourney games shooting 7-10 from three. Butler’s player scored 45 points in his first 2 tourney games shooting 10-22 from three. Huge difference.
I guess I am legitimately crazy for not thinking Mack is WAY better than Gibbs.
Mack isn’t Derrick Rose. Let’s get a grip here.
That flop call doesn’t get called or Brown nails that final FT and he is being elevated as a NBA prospect. He misses and the rest is history.
In our minds, we know GB. We knew he was always one foot on a dunk and one foot on a turnover…but had he made that shot, everyone would have been clamoring on him. He had an unbelievable game. Fine line, huh?
I think what frustrates Pitt fans is the fact that we tend to be on the side of losing more than winning in these pivotal situations in March
Call me one that believes we have to be in the position to make a run, and to do that, we have to continue to suffer through some of these March losses to finally enjoy the time we do make it.
Just because you disagree with something doesn’t make it silly. Find some facts to back up your argument. In my opinion, Brad and Ashton are better, or at least equal, players as Shelvin Mack. I also believe that Gilbert Brown is a better player than Matt Howard. The teams played head to head and were as close to a draw as possible.
The bottom line is that you have your opinion and I have mine. They are different, but neither is silly.
The facts are that Butler is in the national championship game led by Mack who has average over 20 points and Howard who leads the team in rebounds and 2nd in scoring against college’s best.
The fact is that Butler beat Pitt and it is very unlikely that a winning team would not have a player better than 3 players on the losing team.
You say it is your opinon that the Pitt guys are better … opinions and NOT facts! And you have yet to present a fact to support your opinion.
How can I not think that your’theory’ is silly??
1) An inside game that is a threat, for something other than offensive rebounds and garbage buckets.
2} A player 1 or 3 position that can be a threat penetrating a defense.
Add this to Mr. Gibbs who might then be able to get some open looks and you have an offense that has some versatility.
Watching McGhee tring to catch the ball and do something with it and Naz being ineffective from more than 3 feet was painful, and defenses were able to ignore them, or worse yet foul them and and let them shoot fouls like jr. high players.
Couple that with no slashers of note, and one of the best 3 point shooters around had little or no chance at clean shots.
Until the offense gets more versatile we will continue to make early outs in tourneys.
Butler was able to take Gibbs completely out of a game because Nored put the glove on him and Gibbs only does one thing well. Even if Pitt had a defender like Nored, taking Mack out of the game would be much tougher because he’s bigger, stronger and has a much more versatile game than Gibbs.
Maybe it’s tough for guys like Mack and Howard to get up for Valpo and Wright State every night. Bottom line is,they’d both be very good Big East players and would have made multiple Big East all conference teams during their careers.
Don’t think there are too many coaches out there who’d pick any of Pitt’s players before those two if given a chance to build a team from scratch……..
I had myself resigned to the fact that Birch was going to be the backup center going into next season. But Dokish is 100% correct:
“If they have a starting front line of Taylor, Robinson, and Patterson, then that makes no sense to me. It proves that Dixon is just trying to win a lot of regular season games, first and foremost because they are never getting past the Sweet 16 with both Robinson and Patterson starting.”
So now when it happens, and it will, I am going to be pissed.
Dixon needs to adjust his basketball world view and do some season planning. He has lead this program to a place where wins in March are now much more valuable than wins in January. When he took over the program that wasn’t the case.
He is going to be in a tough spot. He preaches toughness, he values play in practice, he values experience. It is hard to imagine that a 22 year old tough as nails Nasir Robinson won’t push an 18 year old Birch around in Green Tree and in practice in the fall. And combine that with the fact that it will be somewhat difficult for Birch to learn the PF position at pitt and handle all the required tasks.
I just don’t seeing Dixon telling his players, “hey I know Nasir is better right now and we probably have a better chance to win with him in there, but trust me, we’ll be better off in March if Birch plays now and we take our lumps”.
I’ve done enough wallowing in self-pity through the tourney, and I find some consolation in that Pitt simply got beat by the two national finalists. But, we gave them their toughest games, and they respect us for that.
Since I just alluded to Butler, let me put something out there for consideration regarding Nas and Birch. One of the big keys to Butler’s run since losing to YSU, was Nored taking a sub’s role to benefit the team. We all know what a team guy Nas is, so couldn’t you see him doing the same as Birch develops?
I think it all hinges on Taylor. If Dante ups his game and his knees hold up, there’s no reason not to give Birch some time at the 4 – ease him into it and up his PT there based on how he performs in practice and games to the point where he’s actually there more minutes than Nas. Again, I think we put too much emphasis on starting when it’s the amount of time on the floor that matters most. Thoughts?
why isn’t florida in the final 4?
pitt doesn’t deny the ball to any player, ever! that is not the way they play defense. even with the defensive “stopper”, nored, gibbs scored 11 points on 7 shots. secondly, offense was not, and has not been, the problem in any of pitt’s losses this season. the defense is much too passive, especially late in close games.
mack taking and making 25 ft. jump shots against pitt is great, but i would still take the 49% shooter every, single time. also, I would rather have wanny over howard. since pitt played butler to a draw, i don’t think hugh and wbb can definitively win this one. negativity doesn’t make someone correct.
i’m no Butler fan, but Mack and Howard have been incredible during these two runs to national championship games. whether we want to or not, we’ll always remember them. hard to talk about a gibbs or a wanamaker in the same terms; they’ve never played for anything and no one, save a couple Pitt fans on this board, will remember them. i don’t know what’s more definitive than that……..
However, I must point out a couple of flaws in your last post. Pitt played passive perimeter defense this year BECAUSE they didn’t have an on-ball stopper like Nored. It wasn’t the same way last year or the year before when we had J. Dixon. He often shut down the opponent’s best perimeter player, just like Nored does for Butler. Many of Gibbs points came without Nored being on the court. Remember, he doesn’t start.
And to hugh’s point about Mack vs. Gibbs, you had to notice that when a Pitt defender tried to crowd Mack on the perimeter, he simply used his strength to take the ball inside for an easy 2. A couple of times he did it so easily that he looked like a man playing against HS kids. That’s another reason he was getting so much room on the outside.
Again, you’re right. There’s no winning this one because both sides have good arguments. It’s just a matter of perspective. And, we still lost no matter what.
Pitt plays passive man-to-man defense every year regardless of personnel. The evidence is the lack of turnovers. Look it up. Pitt’s philosophy is to force tough shots. They do this well, but sometimes good players hit tough shots. Pitt plays a passive man-to-man inside the three point line with lots of help defense. This is the system and it has not changed.
I still think Brown was the best player in the Butler-Pitt game. He was more efficient scoring 24 on 11 shots. Mack scored 30 on 16 shots. Mack wasn’t involved in the go ahead lay-up and he committed a horrifically stupid foul. Pitt held Mack, or he went cold, to 10 points on something like 10 shots in the second half.
It’s the NCAA tournament. It’s one game and you go home. Mack and Howard were pretty lucky the first weekend. Howard gets a magic rebound put-back on Thursday. Mack gets bailed out of the dumbest play since Chris Webber’s timeout by an even dumber play by Nasir Robinson.
A great tournament doesn’t make the two of them NBA All-stars. They aren’t that good and they aren’t that definitively better than Pitt’s 2 best players. Argue until you are blue in the face, but you cannot prove it. The numbers don’t lie.
Wannamaker and Gibbs did win the big east regular season championship at 15-3. That certainly means something.
this is what you recently had to say on this subject:
*The whole point about talent vs balls is kind of meaningless when you consider that neither Pitt nor Butler is an especially talented squad. 2 guys are pretty good on one team, 3 guys are pretty good on the other and who can tell which is which? Neither team has the talent to take this thing…….
*Pitt had zero chance of getting past Fla anyway. I certainly thought they’d beat Butler (and cover the spread), but the Fla/UCLA game opened my eyes. I repeat, zero chance of Final 4.
And, I guess we’ll see what happens with regard to the NBA. My money is on Mack getting futher there than any Pitt player. He’s already slotted higher on every mock draft than any of the 3 Pitt players, this year or next. Several have him as a first-rounder this year. None have one of those Pitt players higher than a late, late second-rounder.
Mack is not an impact player in the NBA, period. I don’t care where he gets drafted. Jon Bender was a lottery pick. He stunk. Michael Olowakandi was the #1 pick. He stunk. Kobe Bryan went 12th in the draft…. NBA gm’s are not the brightest bunch.
I agree that the rest of the Pitt perimeter defenders begin at the 3, but doing otherwise would be asking for trouble because most can’t stick with their men and you’d give up too many easy or easier shots. Therefore, Jamie plays the percentages that a player or team will shoot 10-20% better from inside the arc than outside it, so he defends the inside vigorously. I agree that can be a problem during the tourney because percentages often go out the window with a player (Mack) or a team (VCU) shooting well above their norm. I’ve said he needs to think about changing that but he may need quicker players at all positions to do so effectively.
Also, I didn’t say Mack would be an “impact player” in the NBA. I said his stock was higher than any of the Pitt players.
Finally, I’m pretty much saying what Pitt Rob said. Even though I think Pitt wins a best-of-five series, Butler had more guys step up that day and we lost. There’s no changing that.
I’m not sure I agree regarding Jermaine Dixon. The same thing that happened with Mack happened the year before against Jordan Crawford. Pitt’s unwillingness to extend the perimeter defense past the three-point line is a tournament killer.
Pitt is better off allowing an occasional lay-up versus not denying or contesting impact perimeter players. This is an adjustment that needs to be made by Jamie Dixon.
Some tweaks Jamie should consider for 2011/12:
*Vary the defense – If Woodall and Gibbs start in the back court, it will be the worst defensive backcourt in the Howland/Dixon era. You can’t rely on them to stop the ball consistently. Also, Pitt is going to be without a true center. I have no faith in Dante being able to handle the high ball screen. Why not mix in a zone?
*Also, why not extend the defense once in a while? Mix in a press or a trap. Pitt is going to need some easy baskets. Pitt is going to have more speed and athleticism than ever. Also, they’re are more likely to be losing and need to speed the game up next year.
*On offense, work on some pick and roll? Set a ball screen for woodall. Let him try to penetrate. Roll Taylor, Zanna or Birch to the glass.
*Push the tempo on rebounds. Get the ball to Woodall let him go to the rim. Birch will be the fastest Big on the floor. Moore is as fast as any 3 and gibbs is deadly on the secondary break running to the three point line. Again, pitt will need some easy hoops. Don’t think the half court offense will be as good as we’re used to.
*Push the ball when pressed. Again, Pitt bigs can finish. Get the ball to Birch, Robinson, Taylor etc. at the end of the press break look to score.
In general, I would like to see Pitt speed the game up a little, OPPORTUNISTICALLY. Again, not a wholesale change, just when appropriate look to GO!
As boubacar aw said in another thread, we’re seeing a regime change equal to 2009 when Young, Blair, Fields and Biggs left. But, I think we have more in the cupboard this time around. More athletes at all positions, some promising newcomers. The problem will be experience and the unknown of whether or not guys like Taylor, Moore, Patterson, and even Woodall to some degree are ready to step up to replace the 3 departing players.
I like where you’re going, boubacar aw. We’ll have the athletes so why not try to take advantage of that? I really see next year as a setup for a 2012-13 run, sorry Ashton and Nas, so why not play the season that way? Will Jamie do that and will Pitt fans understand the process? It will be interesting to see.
Other than recruiting, there is zero chance Dixon is even thinking about 2013.
Big question mark for next year – TOUGHNESS.
There is a serious ALPHA DOG deficiency now that Wanamaker left.
next year should be okay. some growing pains early but should be a better team late in the year. a lot will depend on mr. birch. we’ll see. ashton gibbs returning is also key.
Agree that Jamie will focus on winning next season. That’s his job. But, he always finds ways to work guys in to ready them to step into major roles in the future. That’s how he’s sustained the high level of success year after year, and this recent pattern of having a really good team every other year.
Agree there, Omar. Don’t know that you’ll see that until Pitt either gets better/more athletic defenders on the perimeter or goes to an aggressive zone. I wouldn’t mind seeing a little bit of the latter from time to time, especially if we run up against a player or team shooting 3s out of their minds.
Neither Pitt nor Butler IS an especially talented squad. Can’t remember another year when Butler would have had a chance to get back to the NC game AND get to play a 9-9 Big East team. Only in a year when even the one seeds had such conspicuous holes that not even one of them made the Final 4 could that happen. You know it’s bad when the talking heads on ESPN even have to stop promoting for a minute and admit it……..
And yes, after I saw some of the rest of the bracket play and realized there were marked improvements in some teams, I didn’t think Pitt had much chance at the Final 4.
