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March 2, 2011

Crud. I wanted to focus on basketball today and for a little while. That went out the window with the SI/CBS News freakout piece on Criminal Records in College Football. I still would have ignored it as being yet another piece without a lot of context, but plenty of scary numbers and implied accusations.

But there’s a problem. Pitt got to be the poster-boy for this.

Few football programs had a more difficult season in 2010 than the University of Pittsburgh. Led by running back Dion Lewis, a Doak Walker candidate, the Panthers were the preseason pick to win the Big East and go to a BCS bowl. But things quickly began unraveling — on and off the field.

In a span between mid-July and late September, four players were arrested for four separate, violent crimes.

Before this rash of arrests, Pitt had no procedure for screening football recruits for past trouble with the law. But after Knox’s arrest Pitt’s athletic department implemented a new policy requiring coaches to seek more detailed background information on potential recruits.

“This evaluation is not a legal criminal background check,” the school said in a statement. “Rather, it is a checklist of questions that attempts to gain greater knowledge of the behavior and citizenship of an individual prospect from a variety of people.”

It’s a good first step, but doesn’t go far enough. An unprecedented six-month investigation by Sports Illustrated and CBS News found that Pittsburgh had more players in trouble with the law (22) than any other school among SI’s 2010 preseason Top 25. The joint investigation involved conducting criminal background checks on every player — 2,837 in all — on the preseason rosters of those 25 teams. Players’ names, dates of birth and other vital information were checked at 31 courthouses and through 25 law enforcement agencies in 17 states. Players were also checked through one or more online databases that track criminal records. In all, 7,030 individual record checks were performed.

Pitt chancellor Mark Nordenberg and athletic director Steve Pederson declined requests for comment, but the school issued another statement, which said, “We have publicly acknowledged the unacceptable number of off-the-field incidents involving members of our football program during the past season. We have addressed these with the appropriate sanctions and spoke out against such behavior.”

And if you believe the undercurrents of rumors/message boards with the subtext of AD Pederson’s comments after Wannstedt’s firing, then you know part of the way it was addressed.

There’s no getting around Pitt taking a hideous beating this past year plus for off-the-field actions. The Elijah Fields stuff, Sheard, Knox, Douglas. Stuff from the previous year. I’m not defending it. It was a bad scene. There was never a sense that this was an outlaw program, but the incidents added up to look bad.

As an alumni of Pitt, all I can say is, “yeah, it was a bad year.”

One other thing, this is not some bias against Pitt. It’s just the bad luck of Pitt being the team in 2010 with the most bad shit happening. So, please, if you want to travel down that rabbit hole, don’t do it here.

The problem is with the broader numbers to indict college football.

The results of the investigation include some striking revelations. Among them:

• Seven percent of the players in the preseason Top 25 — 204 in all (1 of every 14) — had been charged with or cited for a crime, including dozens of players with multiple arrests.

• Of the 277 incidents uncovered, nearly 40 percent involved serious offenses, including 56 violent crimes such as assault and battery (25 cases), domestic violence (6), aggravated assault (4), robbery (4) and sex offenses (3). In addition there were 41 charges for property crimes, including burglary and theft and larceny.

• There were more than 105 drug and alcohol offenses, including DUI, drug possession and intent to distribute cocaine.

• Race was not a major factor. In the overall sample, 48 percent of the players were black and 44.5 percent were white. Sixty percent of the players with a criminal history were black and 38 percent were white.

• In cases in which the outcome was known, players were guilty or paid some penalty in nearly 60 percent of the 277 total incidents.

Players who would have been on last year’s rosters but had been charged and expelled from their teams before Sept. 1 — and there were dozens — were not counted in our sample. Nor did SI and CBS News have access to juvenile arrest records for roughly 80 percent of the players in the study.

“[It is] a set of facts that obviously should concern all of us,” said new NCAA president Mark Emmert, when presented with these findings. “Seven percent, that’s way too high. I think two percent is too high. You certainly don’t want a large number of people with criminal backgrounds involved in activities that represent the NCAA.”

Then Mark Emmert might be concerned to know this (H/T to @EDSBS):

According to a nationwide survey conducted by MyBackgroundCheck.com, a leading supplier of criminal background checks for students and faculty members, approximately one out of every 29 college students has some type of previous criminal record.

The study was conducted among 13,859 students in 125 universities, career colleges, nursing schools and other educational institutions across the country.

The study only included criminal convictions and excluded arrest information that did not have a disposition. It excluded any charges that were dismissed by prosecutors and juvenile records, which are not accessible to the public.

The percentages of certain convictions uncovered in the study included: child molestation, 2.4 percent; sexual abuse, 5.2 percent; assault, 4 percent; drug possession, 7.4 percent; theft, 8.8 percent; fraud, 2.7 percent; driving violations, 60 percent; and disorderly conduct, 9.5 percent.

[Emphasis added.]

1 in 29 college students with an actual criminal record. 1 in 14 college football players having been cited or charged with a crime. Hmmm.

You will excuse me if I don’t exactly freak out over the criminal element of college football.

Let’s continue a little further.

The number of players with criminal histories turned up by the SI/CBS News investigation reinforces a pervasive assumption that college coaches are willing to recruit players with questionable pasts to win. More surprising, however, is just how little digging college coaches do into players’ backgrounds before offering them a scholarship.

Among the 25 schools in the investigation, only two — TCU and Oklahoma — perform any type of regular criminal background searches on recruits. But even TCU and Oklahoma don’t look at juvenile records. No school does, even though football and basketball players are among the most high-profile representatives of a university. (Of the 25 schools, only Virginia Tech did any type of background checks on admitted students, and admissions questionnaires at more than half the other universities ask applicants if they have ever been arrested.)

The article then points out that in Florida, you can pay a small fee to get full criminal history of a person including “many” juvenile arrests. That is the exception. Most states — as the other study I just referenced points out: Juvenile records are not accessible by the public. For a good reason. Juvenile records are sealed with the idea that a juvenile can make a mistake, but have the opportunity to change. To improve their life and not have early mistakes cost them their future.

At best that is careless omission. At worst, a purposeful mischaracterization to make football programs coaches look even more amoral and uncaring about the players beyond their talent.

(Sorry to get so excised about that aspect, but my wife is a juvenile court magistrate, and I know she’ll get really pissed about that kind of characterization.)

For more, here’s a quick dissection of some more problems with this story from Spencer at EDSBS.





How dumb can Fernando Diaz be? He just freed up a scholie.

Comment by TX Panther 03.02.11 @ 1:04 pm

Great persepective, Chas. This was needed. This is why God gave us blogs.

Comment by Lee in Altoona 03.02.11 @ 1:16 pm

And the Wanny supporters are now looking foolish!

Comment by Pitt fan in Atlanta 03.02.11 @ 1:23 pm

Pitt had a bad year, and we accept that. But I can’t help but notice Penn State at #4, the second dirtiest program in the Big Ten behind Iowa. It takes a tiny bit of the sting away.

Comment by Lee in Altoona 03.02.11 @ 1:36 pm

Ouch… good thing we didn’t recruit Florida. Shame Sheard’s name is dragged through the mudd again right after the combine

Comment by Dave G 03.02.11 @ 1:37 pm

Looks like Coach Graham will get his first shot at administering discipline…

link to post-gazette.com

Comment by Pantherman13 03.02.11 @ 1:38 pm

This is also a Pederson problem, not just Wannstadt.

Comment by Pitt it IS 03.02.11 @ 1:41 pm

Let me clear about one thing. PITT is bigger than athletics and when the athletic programs begin to deminish the value of the institution (degree) we know it is time to make big changes. The firing of Wanny appears to have less to do with wins / losses and more to do with an out of control football program that was becoming a menace and public embarrassment. Can you imagine if this article had come out and Wanny was still the coach?

Comment by Pitt fan in Atlanta 03.02.11 @ 1:56 pm

I agree with Pitt it IS. The athletic director showed no leadership all season long, never communicates with fans then fires Wannstedt with no due process. Cleaning house can be both therapeutic and effective, but start at the top. Make Pederson jump out his rabbit hole.

Comment by TonyinHouston 03.02.11 @ 2:47 pm

Why as contributing members to the Pitt community do we learn about this via headlines at CNNSI and the post-gazette? Again, it all goes back to Pederson. Sorry, guys, but he is one piss poor A.D.

Comment by TonyinHouston 03.02.11 @ 2:48 pm

If it is 1 in 29 college students with an actual criminal record. 1 in 14 college football players having been cited or charged with a crime. what is it for the greek community??

Comment by dcpinpgh 03.02.11 @ 2:51 pm

Apparently 40% of these charges end up as non convictions – a startling statistic.

Are football players MORE likely to be charged when there is flimsy evidence (jealousy or vindictiveness)? Or perhaps more likely to resolve cases favorably because they have access to funds to pay for damages in exchange for dismissals, than say your average drunk college kid?

Comment by Patrick 03.02.11 @ 4:03 pm

“Make Pederson jump out his rabbit hole….”

… and then blast him! (Checking my calendar to see when ‘Douchebag’ season opens….)

Comment by thestumper 03.02.11 @ 4:21 pm

Told ya you don’t want to ranked too early, if only we could have been just “also receiving votes”!!!

Minor, will be forgotten about in a week, at least by me. Player trouble at Pitt, old news.

Comment by Dan 03.02.11 @ 4:21 pm

Just as long as we don’t stereotype. There are some fine citizens on the team.

Comment by steve 03.02.11 @ 4:34 pm

Funny how things spread through the wind. I was told earlier today twice, Pitt made the cover of Sports Illustrated for bad news. Is this true, or just an article in the S.I.?? Or, website story??? The two guys jumpin’ around here told everyone it was a cover story. A bad story all around, but, I had visions of a large picture of a Pitt player, in uniform, prominent pic of Pitt football helmet, with something, like say, cell bars going across the whole picture. Can anyone verify this?? Is it a cover story???

That would be much worse, millions of subscriber, on the cover. Even then though, in this day and age, of need it now, what’s blowing up today, who killed who tomorrow, not a big deal.

Even if the cover, will be gone when the next cover comes out. I guess I don’t think it’s a big deal, because we all allready knew these things happened.

Doesn’t phase me a bit, waiting for Todd Graham and the spring game. I’m not apathetic, I’ve allready made my comments Sept-Dec on this situation.

Comment by Dan 03.02.11 @ 4:40 pm

I’m a pro in crisis management. I did PR for the accountants during the financial reporting meltdown.

As a proud alum, I’m available pro bono. Just give me a call.

Comment by steve 03.02.11 @ 4:52 pm

Here we go again!! Another media frenzy. The pundits have more juicy statistics to throw around. When will this ever stop? If the sports writers and social critics did not have athletes and politicians to verbally lynch what could they possibly write about? The fact is folks, humans are not perfect and athletes are human. No excuses, but it is this writer’s opinion that players abd coaches at the university of Pittsburg are neither better nor worse than players at other schools. I would suggest that the social critics at their desks check out the indiscretions and misdirections of their career peers. Please, let’s not spend another grid season substituting the criminal records for on the field achievements. Rev. George from Columbus

Comment by Rev. George Mehaffey 03.02.11 @ 4:56 pm

TonyinHouston – you are a master of the mis-direction… how in the world do you digest information like what was published all through the season and today, along with the actions we saw happen in December and turn this around to put it on Peterson’s shoulders instead of Wannstedt’s?

Get your head out of the sand.

And stating Wannstedt was fired without due process? Holy Hell! I got news for you – Dave Wannstedt knew the minute he chose to play Jabaal Sheard in the Utah game that he was playing with fire from the PITT administration’s side. BTW – Pederson didn’t fire Dave Wannstedt by himself – he was just the public face of the action. DW burnt his bridges with the top of the PITT heap way before the WVU game.

It isn’t the AD’s job to communicate every single thing to the fans – what in the world did you want him to say to you?

Sooner or later PITT fans are going to have to stop putting the blame for everything that happens on Pederson – give credit and blame where it’s due… Dave Wannstedt created his own downfall and was fired for it. No one else is to blame in this but the Head Coach who was the supposed leader and decision maker in the football program.

Comment by Reed 03.02.11 @ 5:24 pm

At the risk of ‘going down the rabbit hole’, taking a still shot at a moment in time and judging an entire University’s football program based on that moment in time is yellow journalism at it’s finest.
And very typical of today’s biased, lying media who can distort and twist facts, use time lines that suit the story and create their own illusions to suit their desired end results.

Oh and Pitt doesn’t own the newspapers like some of these universities do in these college towns where some of these incidents involving student athletes……just disappear. How about that !

Comment by melvinbennett 03.02.11 @ 5:27 pm

Pitt is in deep doodoo perception-wise, just watch TV for awhile.

Would you want your son or daughter attending such a crime-ridden institution?

A Tylenol-type response is needed immediately.

Comment by steve 03.02.11 @ 5:58 pm

When you read this POS SI/CNN article, please note the four example stories(the back stories) used as evidence; include the poster child of the story, Pitt. Another BigEast school Cincinnati, not only once, but they’re used twice to hit home the point of the story. And then non-big 6 school Utah which is entering a new league which requires more extensive recruiting. Wisconsin is also used(albeit in a good light), I guess so that it’s not a totally seen through farcical job of omitting the major football factories. You know the schools with the biggest athletic budgets and who wield the most clout. We all know who we’re talking about here. Who does mentioning Pitt & Cincinnati and painting them is such a bad light, benefit the most?

We wouldn’t want to offend the major power brokers in the NCAA would we.

Comment by melvinbennett 03.02.11 @ 6:24 pm

Only good thing Steve, hardly anybody buys SI off the newsstands anymore. But you can be sure, the lowlife recruiters will have a copy of it with them when they’re recruiting against Pitt and Cincy & Utah.

Comment by melvinbennett 03.02.11 @ 6:28 pm

Keep this in mind,
SI could have used their End of the Season Top 25 poll, just as easy as their Pre-Season Top 25 poll.
If the former is used, Pitt would have been totally omitted from this hit piece.

So ask yourself why did SI choose their Pre-Season Top 25 poll rather than their End of the Season Top 25 poll.

Comment by melvinbennett 03.02.11 @ 6:36 pm

Can’t say this enough – thank God for Pitt basketball.

Comment by Harrison McClymont 03.02.11 @ 6:58 pm

I’m a Wanny supporter, and yes, this doesn’t reflect well, but please remember that:

– prior to this year, there was never a big problem with the players on his team
– I believer there were only 2 seniors in the past few years that didn’t graduate
– and if Pitt pulls close games out this year at Utah and UConn (and wins BE outright), this discipline issue would be deemed as an aberration

I do beieve that it is clear that Wanny (and his staff) was too much of a player’s coach and much too lenient, and the player’s conduct both on and off the field reflected this … remember all the penalties this past year which NEVER was a problem in previous seasons but in fact was always a strong point of his teams.

In the end, he is back in the NFL where he probably belongs and I’m looking forward to see what a REAL college coach can do here … although I do admit to being real concerned about our defense.

Comment by wbb 03.02.11 @ 7:17 pm

BTW, thank goodness it was Diaz who got arrested and not L Nix or Jacobsen

Comment by wbb 03.02.11 @ 7:30 pm

On the PG blog, another poster repeatedly brings up the results of records searches he does on Pitt recruits. According to JoeD, at least one of the Pitts cousins has lots of baggage. If true, the new policy does not appear to be very stringent.

Comment by Pwmcdupitt 03.02.11 @ 7:55 pm

This is an attention grabbing story but it leaves a lot of questions. How many of these incidents occurred before arriving on a college campus? Is it fair to include charges that haven’t been processed to a conclusion? Traffic violations, really?
Not saying that Pitt (and all schools) can’t do better, just saying lets see all the facts in a fair light.

The idealist in me would love it if football recruiting was limited to kids who could meet the same admission requirements as the rest of the incoming student population and who have squeaky clean criminal records.
The pragmatist in me knows this is never going to happen.

It’s unfortunate that Pitt heads the list but nearly every one of the kids recruited by Pitt would have received a scholarship somewhere else had they not landed at Pitt. And they bring their criminal records with them.
I’m reminded of the SI article about Aliquippa and the athletes who used sports as their means of escape from depression, drugs, crime and gang violence that prevails there. And in so many other communities around the country.
I think most college coaches believe themselves to be good judges of character, and most see some virtue in giving a chance to a kid who’s had it rough.

And how many athletes who have criminal records of one kind or another coming into school sieze the opportunity and turn themselves around? The article didn’t address that either.

With Graham coming on board there’s an ideal opportunity to use this story to get a fresh message to the players. Citizenship counts. I heard TG say it in a radio interview this afternoon. We’ll see in September how well he can deliver.

As the ancient philospher said, “and this too shall pass..”

Comment by dock71 03.02.11 @ 8:12 pm

There’s a meet and greet at the Pete on Sunday with Graham and his staff to advertise the new high power offense.

Timing could have been better…

Comment by dock71 03.02.11 @ 8:21 pm

Anyone remember when we used to make fun of Miami for this kind of stuff?

Look, I think Pederson is an incompetent buffoon for a thousand different reasons. As much as I’d like to throw him under the bus on this, I can’t put it all on his shoulders. He’s implicated, and holds some accountability, but it’s not ALL on him. I’ve always thought that, as far as football recruits go, there’s lots of talent. It’s easy to find kids with speed, or size, or good hands, or whatever. They’re out there. What’s hard is finding the kids with the complete package – brains, attitude, and other intangibles that, kind of like art, you know it when you see it. Texas gets the kid that has all of those things; we get the kid that has some of them. Not to say that some of our athletes don’t pan out brilliantly; we’ve had some shining stars come through this program in recent years. Still, we’ve had our disappointments as well, and I always try to remind myself when I get frustrated that we just don’t usually have the overall quality of athlete (either talent or character) that I’d like us to have, and that the big guys have their issues off the field as well. Unmentioned in this is that, at this point, we don’t cheat. Maybe I’m whistling past the graveyard, but even though clearly we’ve recruited some moronic thugs, we didn’t do anything illegal to bring them here….

… right?

In a way, if this was going to happen, it couldn’t have happened at a better time. If Wanny was still here (as others have alluded) next season would be a complete debacle. As it stands, it’s a complete reboot. Yeah, we’ll suffer through some bad press, but once again we’re fortunate enough to be able to worship at the alter of Jamie Dixon and hope that he delivers us from purgatory once again. Without his influence, this would be worse than it is.

The guy I feel for right now is Graham. I wonder how much he knew about this coming in. Hell of a way to kick off a new program. Not only do you have to rebuild a program, but now there’s reputation work to be done as well. Especially since, technically, the last coach beat up his baby mama.

Ugh.

Comment by thestumper 03.02.11 @ 8:42 pm

Reed:
You rewrite rules as you talk to yourself. Good luck with that.

Comment by TonyinHouston 03.02.11 @ 9:39 pm

It isn’t the AD’s job to communicate every single thing to the fans – what in the world did you want him to say to you?

“Sooner or later PITT fans are going to have to stop putting the blame for everything that happens on Pederson – give credit and blame where it’s due… Dave Wannstedt created his own downfall and was fired for it. No one else is to blame in this but the Head Coach who was the supposed leader and decision maker in the football program.”

Pederson is the AD. At ANY time he could have stepped in and imposed discipline if he thought Wanny wasn’t doing the job. He buried his head in the sand. If Wanny wins the Big East, this wouldn’t have been a problem and Wanny would still be the coach.

Why is Pederson still here and taking a paycheck from Pitt? He should have been gone after the Haywood Debacle. IF the reason you fired Wanny was because of all of the arrest, then Pederson shares the blame. He could have done something but he had his head up his a$$ as usual.

Sever ties with him now.

Comment by firestevenow 03.02.11 @ 10:21 pm

Still…….. Pitt needs to get on the ball and do a better background check on “ALL” people that are put on a pedestal and represent Pitt in public, whether it be scholarship athletes, coaches, administrators or teachers. Not to say Pitt should avoid all people that have made mistakes, but the decision has to be an informed one.

Comment by mtoolmn 03.03.11 @ 1:09 am

Tony – I’m not sure what you mean by that. I’m pretty consistent in my outlook in this area and have been since September of 2010. This sure as hell isn’t the first go-around discussion we have had on these subjects and while everyone else made excuse after excuse for Wannstedt’s decision making I spoke out against what I thought was poor leadership… from last preseason until today.

Again – putting the blame on anyone but whose job it was to ensure that the FOOTBALL program was run properly – Dave Wannstedt – is just deflecting the blame.

And firestevenow – the last thing in the world the PITT AD or Administration would do would be to usurp the Head Coach’s authority in a public manner – all hell would have broken loose and DW would have lost every single shred of whatever influence he had left over his players. And you and every other fan would have been clutching your chest and wailing because he did it. Instead the Administration did exactly what they should have done – factored it in to their decision making when it came time to fire Wannstedt.

Comment by Reed 03.03.11 @ 4:46 am

This, Reed, points the finger directly at Wanny:

“The officers said (Diaz) ignored a friend who told him former coach Dave Wannstedt wasn’t there anymore and Graham was going to make an example of him.

Read more: Police use Taser on ex-Pitt football player in confrontation – Pittsburgh Tribune-Review link to pittsburghlive.com

Comment by steve 03.03.11 @ 7:11 am

I have to wonder if the football offices being so far away from campus have anything to do with the rash of incidents.

I’ve always thought, for example, that Enron and Worldcom happened mainly because their book-cooking happened so far away from where the regulators live.

Comment by steve 03.03.11 @ 7:16 am

I’ll have to admit, as a former Wanny supporter, I had it all wrong. I’m now thinking SP had knowledge that this story was being written back in December and that sooner or later it would all hit the fan. The rest of us didn’t know this at the time.
However, the PG story from 3/2, that has SP’s fingerprints on it, what with the quote of how Wanny would have handled it – how often do you see quotes in these types of write-ups?
Lesson learnt – don’t make your judgement until you know the FULL story! (but isn’t that what blogs are for)

Comment by giffer 03.03.11 @ 8:39 am

The drive by media on full display here

Comment by CN 03.03.11 @ 8:41 am

[…] yesterday when Coach Todd Graham and AD Steve Pederson met with the media in light of the SI.com story that featured Pitt as the #1 team in terms of arrests in college football. The implications are there, but then they were already in […]


And firestevenow – the last thing in the world the PITT AD or Administration would do would be to usurp the Head Coach’s authority in a public manner – all hell would have broken loose and DW would have lost every single shred of whatever influence he had left over his players. And you and every other fan would have been clutching your chest and wailing because he did it. Instead the Administration did exactly what they should have done – factored it in to their decision making when it came time to fire Wannstedt.

Reed, He wouldn’t have had to taken action in a “public manor.” A statement from the football team that player x was disciplined wouldn’t have to have had Pederson’s fingerprints on it.

To say that he doesn’t share blame is disingenuous. If you are going to blame Wanny for the problem, them stevie shares some of the blame too and needs to pay the price. The AD is the boss and if something’s not right, he has a obligation to do something. Like I said, had Wanny won the BE, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Comment by firestevenow 03.03.11 @ 10:33 am

The big concern is the image damage. Your academic degree is not going to be worth less, but how does this affect endowments, fundraising, grant-approvals, and the like?

Kids are kids, these ones in particular are fools to say the least. Whether it’s bad luck or they were not vetted properly (or at all)is anyone’s guess. The administration continues to be in clean-up mode for the football program.

My opinion, anyone involved with any serious charges of ANY kind, athlete or not, should be expelled from the school. Heck, look at BYU dismissing a player for violating conduct & having sex. Whether or not you agree with the rule, I have to respect the testicular fortitude of the school to kick him off the team despite the impact athletically (and monetarily) the decision has. We live in a society where no one takes blame. For me, it’s refreshing to see accountability for actions.

Comment by Big A 03.03.11 @ 10:39 am

Seems statistically odd that Pitt and Penn State are two of the top four–both have a general reputation as running programs cleaner than the norm. Any PA lawyers know if there is some aspect of PA law that makes juvenile crimes more disclosable in PA?

Comment by Irishpanther 03.03.11 @ 10:55 am

I’m sorry to all of the above bloggers before hand in making such an off the wall opinion myself of this situation, buttt,,,, the primary and the secondary people responsible for any and all of the above unlawful indiscretions are, 1- the kids who got arrested!!! and 2- their parents for not raising them with the fear of God when they were growing up regarding acting correctly in the first place and respecting authority in the second place.

Comment by Dr. Tom 03.03.11 @ 12:55 pm

This would be something to worry about if the average American and sports fan didn’t have the attention span of…….wait, what were we talking about again? Oh right, how hot J-Lo looked on Idol last night.

After conference hoops tourneys start next week, the NCAAFB page on any media website will go unvisited until August.

Having said that, that is an absolutely awesomely embarrassing photo of Wannstedt under the gigantic “CRIME AND PUNISHMENT” headline on the CNNSI website NCAAFB page: link to sportsillustrated.cnn.com

Comment by cnorwoodaz 03.03.11 @ 4:26 pm

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