Oh joy. Well, at least the Big East waited to stir things up until there was a bye week for Pitt.
The BIG EAST Conference submitted the results of its extensive self-analysis and evaluation of the college athletics environment today at its annual Conference Board of Directors meeting. Based on those results, the BIG EAST presidents agreed that the interests of each of the conference’s 16 member institutions would be served by increasing the number of Bowl Subdivision football-playing members to 10. They unanimously approved the process to evaluate the terms and conditions for potential expansion candidates.
That means — nothing. It means the only they approved the concept that going to 10 teams in football is a good idea (duh). The other thing they approved is the manner in which they will decide to figure out the best way to figure out the best possible options.
They didn’t approve of a short list. They didn’t approve of the actual evaluation process. They only approved the evaluation process for the way they will evaluate candidates.
Really? We already know this one. Villanova has the invite and has to decide. Then it is TCU, Houston, UCF, Temple and Memphis.
That’s the list. It doesn’t take much to figure out. Navy and Army won’t bite.
The ACC and Big 10/12 aren’t coming calling for Pitt or anyone else for some time, so don’t start screaming about how Pitt needs to get out of the Big East tomorrow. That’s a broken record with no relevance to this. Pitt has no leverage to make that happen. They would be a nice addition to a conference, but they are not a sought after crown jewel. Only those programs can dictate when and where they want to be.
I’m not going to get too wound up about this. If there is news, I’ll pass it along and offer my thoughts. Right now, this is not news. This is just still a reminder to ‘Nova to make up their minds and a message to the obvious candidates to start preparing their presentations (and maybe line up donors for the entrance fee).
Big East Conference football and men’s college basketball (starting with the 2008 football season these game are branded as the Big East Network with SportsNet New York as the flagship station) they just didnt do a very good at getting more revenue?
I know I joked about this yesterday (referencing BBQ and TexMex), but from a football perspective, the two schools on the list that seem to bring the most to the table are TCU and Houston. That probably means they won’t be invited, but…
As far as the BE tourney is concerned it is easy to either exclude the #17 regular season finisher or have #17 play #16 in a play in game.
Going to 10 in FB is less desirable than only adding 1 to get to 9, IMO, however. It presumably leaves FB teams with an unbalanced league home/away schedule (5H/4A or 4H/5A)–unless the old Big ten practice of not playing one league opponent each year is adopted. It also reduces the ability to schedule a number of attractive OOC opponents (despite how that unfortunately played out this year).
Speaking of TCU: Sorry, but I just don’t see it for these reasons:
1. TCU wants to be in the Big 12, and that makes the most sense for them. They could be allowing these rumors to float just to try to force the Big 12’s hand.
2. The rumor came from the NY Post, a paper known for sensationalism under Rupert Murdoch’s New Corp. Yes, they have an excellent Sports section, but Murdoch knows what sells papers.
3. The BE presidents will have to approve of TCU. They have many things to consider other than their schools’ football reputations – like travel budgets in a tough economy, academics, etc. TCU will have to bring more than a short term winning football program to the table. Don’t know if they bring enough especially since Texas is still the big dog in that TV market, and probably in the Houston market as well.
4. No one in the Eastern US knows what a Horned Frog is. Had to throw that in. 🙂
Logically, I see this as Villanova being forced to step up (yuck) and adding a school already in the BE footprint. My guess is UCF because:
1. It adds a decent, growing TV market (#19 – bigger than Pittsburgh’s #23 market by the way) and even though U of Florida is the big dog, Orlando is transient enough for UCF to continue to gain followers.
2. Travel to Florida is already a given for USF and this would create an attractive in-state rivalry.
3. Now that they have a large enrollment (#1 in Florida) they’re upgrading their academic standards and made a few of the coveted lists.
4. An up-and-coming university in the existing footprint that also adds a new TV market would be attractive to the BE presidents.
That’s my best guess at this time, and why I’m not all that excited. But I hope I’m wrong and the BE presidents go berserk and do some of the things mentioned in the previous thread.
1. Add Villanova and Temple. I think this is most likely since it will do the least to “upset the apple cart” so to speak. You gain a stronghold on the eastern PA market, create geographical rivalries with eastern PA, NY, Conn, and NJ, and add a strong BB school.
2. Add Villanova and UCF. Probably the backup plan. All the benefits of eastern competition, plus increase a foothold on the FLA market which would help FB recruiting especially due to population shifts and instability in FSU & FU FB programs.
3. Add Villanova and some MAC school.
What I would like to see is BE add: ND, BC, Villanova, and Temple. If you are going to expand to 10 in FB why not 12 so you can get the conference champ game? It evens up # of BB teams, strengthens FB, creates great geographical rivalries, and solidifies northeast market. Unlikely you could get ND and BC but with increased revenue from championship game, TV contract negotiating strength maybe its not impossible.
In any case, if it is true that the basketball schools will not approve the addition of any more members to the basketball league, then I am back at my original gut feeling that this all is essentially an effort to convince Villanova to move up to FBS, and that if they do not do that, there really is no other long-term plan ready to go.
I don’t know if it would have worked, but it is too bad the Big East didn’t aggressively go after KState, Missouri and/or Kansas last spring when it appeared the Big 12 was on the verge of collapse.
demographic and preferences matter more than actual size of the market… old ladies from the Bronx who moved to orlando dont care about college football… in fact the whole state barely cares about sports (watch tampa’s playoff attendance?)
Without us in football, the Big East loses its top program as far as national exposure (titles, heismans, histories, rivalries, pro players, etc)… without us in bball it loses one of its top 3 programs over last 10 years. As far as combined revenue generator for tv… pitt has to be number one in the last 5 years (national tv football games, ND football games, national tv bball games, etc)
they need to put the axe to Nova football… them or us. A 6000 student catholic school with no tradtion, fan support, facilities, or money WILL NEVER COMPETE IN DIVISION 1. Its an insult to think they will replace Miami, VT, and BC and try to stay competitive in the BCS with VILLANOVA.
Pitt is attractive to the Big 10 and ACC… and will certainly find a home for hoops if it needs to go independent for football.
Nova and Temple? Are we the MAC? What a joke.
If the big east doesnt make bold football moves (which i give a 5% probability regarding TCU/Houston/SMU/Navy/Army/Kansas/Kstate/etc) Pitt needs to abandon ship
Id rather play ND’s schedule and be an independent as we always were then deal with two Philly joke football schools who will take Utah/Miami off the schedule
ND will not join. Plain and simple really.
I think the only way to make this happen is to take some chances and be bold. TCU and Houston and how about UCF (I know the arguments against this) and East Carolina?
Or better yet, the ACC picks us up asap. lol
Carolina, Temple, Memphis, you know what, don’t bother. That is exactly what will happen, we’ll be left with 3 OCC, and you can bet two of the three will be Vermont and Southern Illinois. That is the one thing that helped me, somewhat stomach the Big East, Utah, Miami, Iowa, Mich St. Nebraska, T A&M etc. etc. Could you imagine the schedule……what we have now, with UCF and Temple, then add Middle Tennessee, Western Kentucky, and hopefully one Illinois, Fla St. B.Y.U. No thanks, if you’re not gonna do something bold, leave it alone. Your list of teams is exact, anyone else, is just filler. Please, don’t bash us, we’re not bashing the Big East, we’re hoping they are proactive and bold, not just stuffing for stuffings sake!!
I still cant believe that everyone who has anything to do with pitt is not outraged at the thought of Nova being on our football schedule. You could fit Villanofun’s entire student body in Pitt’s lower bowl student section
have any of you ever been to Nova?
the stadium and football experience can be described in a word – JOKE
12,500 seating capacity… seriously
link to villanova.com
so small it is not even on wikipedia…
link to en.wikipedia.org
yes… that’s 1/3 as most WPIAL championship games draw in the burgh
link to pittsburghlive.com
Anybody have WPIAL high school attendance? I think Cupples Stadium for the City League has to be close to that little pipsqueek field
Look at all of this tradtion on their wiki page!
link to en.wikipedia.org
COME ON!!!!
Here is why I cant take ESPN BE blogger Brian Bennett seriously:
3. Villanova: The Wildcats solve a lot of practical headaches, as the Big East wouldn’t have to add another school for other sports. They also have the Philadelphia market and offer another rival for the Northeast schools
They have the Philly market? Really? What facts does he use to justify that statement. I lived in Philly for two years and never saw a Villanova game on TV once… I dont even think they are televised on a regular basis.
I think one of the Ventrone brothers who wasnt playing at Pitt transferred there and became the second coming of Brian Westbrook… jk but really, Villanova in our football conference? Im waiting for Stevie P to say “got ya! just kiddin!”
Median age:
Orlando DMA = 39.6
Pittsburgh DMA = 41.1
Household Income:
Orlando DMA = $64,286
Pittsburgh DMA = $53,178
The Orlando DMA also leads the Pittsburgh DMA in consumer sales in most major categories tied to TV ad spending, including automotive and alcoholic beverages, two key sports ad spenders.
So which market has the most POTENTIAL for TV ad revenue? However, my point was not that Orlando is BETTER than Pittsburgh. Personally, I’ll take Pittsburgh any day.
My point was that it was a bigger TV market than Pittsburgh, which based on some earlier comments might surprise some here. But as ususal, you took that out of context to act smart.
Of course Pittsburgh can probably demand a higher ad rate for sports programming. It’s a market steeped in sports tradition, so they should have higher TV ratings for sports programming. Again, that wasn’t the point. The point is that Orlando is an attractive TV market.
By the way, UCF averaged 38,078 in home attendance in 2009 on a pretty mediocre schedule. That would have put them ahead of Cincinnati and Louisville, and pretty close to Connecticut.
Everyone already laughs at us in football, sometimes for good reason and sometimes out of ignorance. But do you know what we have? We have some sort of integrity. No ridiculous divisions, no useless conference championship game and no commissioner grandstanding about the “values” of the conference. (Granted, it would be nice if he said SOMETHING once in a while.) (And, yes, it won’t happen, but how much more integrity would we get if we could get Army and Navy?)
But if we add a Texas school, we are C-USA. You can justify the inclusion of South Florida and the possible inclusion of Central Florida through history (we used to have Miami) or through the demographics of the United States (most people are moving to the Sun Belt). And hey, it is on the East Coast. But while Storrs isn’t exactly around the corner from Louisville, UConn at TCU in a Big East football match-up makes about as much sense as Louisiana-Lafayette at Hawaii in a WAC game.
Be smart, administrators. Be smart.
apparently you didnt read my post, yet you felt the need to make incorrect statements about it:
“TampaT… see what costs more for advertising revenue… Orlando football broadcasts or Pittsburgh football broadcasts”
did you see what costs more? no… i was simply stating tnat I felt that college fb games in Pittsburgh generate more ad revenue than Orlando… find some stats on that before you bring any more useless ones to the board
Unless you have ratings for college FB games in the Orlando market… or the actual rates charged for ads during those games… those stats mean nothing to this argument
I never disagreed with that point
Id take UCF/Houston/TCU package in a heartbeat
My stats were relevant to the meat of your comment which was “little old ladies…don’t care about football” insinuating that Orlando was full of retirees on fixed incomes. As those stats you call irrelevant show, that’s not the case.
And, you again only picked the part of your first post that was relevant to your counterpoint above. Pretty sad.
The best strategy, short and long-term, is to concentrate on building relationships with universities that are, first, geographically relevant and second, similar in their overall mission.
Adding Villanova would cut down on travel, bring another strong academic school into the BE (with well-regarded professional schools) and will not result in a facilities arms race in which Pitt cannot compete, because Villanova doesn’t have the money or room to expand, either.
Plus, when the inevitable split between the football and basketball schools takes place, ‘Nova will be an important part of the conference.
DeVanzo: One last point to you. Comparing current TV ratings is apples-to-oranges and irrelevant to my original point. You can’t compare Pitt vs. any BE team to UCF vs. any C-USA team. Of course the ratings and correspondingly the ad rates would be higher in Pitt’s case. My original point was about POTENTIAL – UCF vs. BE team TV ratings.
even in that alternate future… adding villanova as a football school is just pathetic
please read all of my points above, they are instantly the worst program in the BCS
who cares about academics? They arent a research university either, no doctoral programs… its a small catholic masters school… why dont we invite Swarthmore too?
A facilities arms race? What does that even mean? We already have the best facilities in the BLeast… and some of the best in America. And were supposed to bring in Nova so we dont get threatened into making capital investments in our athletic programs?
ugh
Where has Pederson been throughout all this landscape conference talk over the last year? For a guy who came in with guns blazing the first time around at Pitt, making controversial moves for the greater good, he’s been pretty quiet with his second go-around.
HTscriptP
You’re missing the point entirely. The fact is, Villanova has gotten enough notice that all the local news stations include Villanova in their weekly football coverage, along with Temple and Penn State. They are recognized as one of the top-5 programs at that level, with potential to move up. Was UConn any different when they moved up ten years ago? Villanova could make the move, with a stadium expansion. But if they are the only school the Big East adds, they’re in trouble. I say take Temple from the Philly schools, their football program is rapidly improving and taken seriously by many 3-star candidates, and they have a storied basketball program with a great home court and another rising program.
Youre missing the point entirely
I lived in Philly… they get ZERO notice… their games are not even broadcast on television…. nobody cares. I think Penn’s games at Franklin Field had more coverage and attendance. I dont care if they are top 5 playing other high school teams… that makes them what… 130th in div 1 then?
“taken seriously by many 3 star candidates”
are you a 3 star? Thats a Brian Bennett statement… thats not an observable fact. The facts are that they dont even really sign blue chips:
link to rivals.yahoo.com
How are they different from UCONN??
HELLO
Uconn is a public land grant university with 20k+ undergrads… the exact kind of school that fields a solid football program and has the alumni and students to support it
To think that Nova will ever have the fans or alumni to support it seems a bit far fetched to say the least. The only teams that do well with that small of a student body either have first mover advantage from starting a football program back in the early 20th century or have a ton of money (TCU qualifies for both there)
Don’t confuse what I said with Villanova about what I said with Temple. And I grew up outside of Philly, which is where a large portion of Villanova’s fan base will come from–a wealthy, influential fanbase.
If they go to 16 team Mega-conferences, then we would have our 12 teams and then we could add the remnants of the Big 12, if Texas & it’s 3 little brothers move at some point in time to the Pac 10 or the Big 10 or who knows, even the SEC.
TIES
1 USF
2 UCF
3 Memphis
4 Louisville
5 Cincinnati
6 Marshall
7 WVU
8 Pitt
9 Temple
10 Rutgers
11 Syracuse
12 Uconn
I would rather the Big East split the two and one be a basketball only conference. The Big East would still own both keeping the old basketball rival ties by playing them as non conference games.
1 Umass
2 Providence
3 St. Johns
4 Seton Hall
5 Villanova
6 Georgetown
7 Charlotte
8 Xaiver
9 Notre Dame
10 St. Louis
11 Depaul
12 Marquette
“what youre saying is some weird blend of philosophy and dystopianism…”
So? Philosophy is built upon logic, and logic comes in handy when making decisions. And between Jim Calhoun, Bruce Pearl and Cam Newton’s “agent” (just some recent examples), why would I think the world of college athletics is a UTOPIAN environment — never mind a positive, enriching one? Excuse me for seeing it as the sewer that it is, and for not being very encouraged about the direction in which it is moving.
“please read all of my points above, they are instantly the worst program in the BCS”
That doesn’t mean they always will be; they could get better. As for television, I live near Villanova. Their games are on TV every week in the area. The same cannot be said for Pitt. The field is an issue, but there are ways around that: If they really wanted to commit, they could knock down their stadium and build a 20-30,000 seater on-campus. That’s about what we draw at Heinz Field. If they don’t want to do that, what’s the difference between a half-empty Linc for Villanova football and a half-empty Heinz Field for Pitt football?
“who cares about academics? They arent a research university either, no doctoral programs… its a small catholic masters school… why dont we invite Swarthmore too?”
Swarthmore doesn’t even have a football team anymore. That would be a much bigger project, but I am intrigued. Anyway, I care about academics, and it seems like you do, too, if you want a major research univeristy. Cincy, UConn, Louisville, South Florida and WVU are dragging the conference down by not being members of the AAU, i.e. “major research universities”. Know what other schools aren’t major research universities? TCU, UCF and Houston. So, if you want major research universities, you’re not getting them in your package. And besides, BC isn’t in the AAU, but, hard feelings aside, you’d have them back, wouldn’t you? Pitt is a fine school, and I’d prefer them to be rubbing shoulders with schools at their station, not arrivistes like South Florida and UCF. You’re not getting your academics with those schools, nor are you getting geographic locations that make any (Texas schools) or much (UCF) sense.
“A facilities arms race? What does that even mean? We already have the best facilities in the BLeast… and some of the best in America. And were supposed to bring in Nova so we dont get threatened into making capital investments in our athletic programs?”
What do you mean, “What does that even mean?” People talk about facilities arms races all of the time. Read about a conference besides the Big East — facilities are kind of important in recruiting. Maybe we do have the best facilitiies in the Big East, but that’s really just based on what we’ve been told. Have you ever worked out at UPMC Southside? I haven’t. And I think UConn or Rutgers could get better facilities. They have the land and the money. But to say that we have some of the best facilities in America is completely out of order. Do you know what kind of palaces to football they build at places like Texas and Tennessee? We are not even on the national map for football facilities. So, if you bring in a school like Villanova that doesn’t have the land or the money to build much (especially if they did build that stadium), you’re not going to get out-classed in facilities when recruiting. At least as far as facilities are concerned, the playing field can be kept relatively even.
“ugh”
Is it really that disgusting to you? Is it really that frustrating — the idea of playing opponents whose fans are close enough to travel to some of the other schools in the conference? To build a conference that, in, say, twenty years time, has established tradition? Would you rather just jump in the Big Ten and pretend Michigan State then Nebraska is a rival? Hold a pointless conference championship game no one will attend? Is it so bad to continue our basketball rivalry with ‘Nova in football? How does being in a conference with TCU, UCF and Houston do anything for us? It hardly makes sense to be in a conference with Cincy and Louisville, but I’m at least used to it now. (Not South Florida, though. You can kick them to the curb as far as I’m concerned.) If markets and manufactured enthusiasm are your thing, stick to pro sports. I await the day we play Carnegie Mellon and Duquesne in conference play.
@TampaT
I have a question. When we’re all watching on our phones, how is one city’s demographics going to matter? People in Houston or Tampa will be able to watch whatever they want; in some cases they already can. Don’t you need to nurture your own fans’ interest? Isn’t that your only guaranteed audience?
Don’t you think that advertisers are still going to target the markets where they have the highest sales volumes? Budwiser doesn’t know how much beer you drink, but they do know they sell a lot of beer in Pittsburgh. So, they’ll still throw bigger money at Pittsburgh than at individual Pitt fans. And, ESPN will continue to follow that money, at least for the foreseeable future.
But, yeah, it is the monoliths who control the feed. And while the “market” is more powerful than the “individual” if we’re talking about where the money is, what you’re not allowing for is a change in what constitutes the market.
In other words, if the market becomes fragmented — and Pitt is a bad example because its fans are located in roughly the same geographic area — and your viewers are not located in one place, you would need to find new ways to reach your market other than just beaming your programming to a certain region. I think that’s why things like ESPN3.com and foxsoccer.tv exist.
And, sure, ESPN will throw money at the city of Pittsburgh, but I was suggesting that Pitt itself should try to nurture the interest of its own fans rather than concentrating on bringing in markets like Houston or Dallas/Fort Worth that aren’t going to care. Heinz Field is never full and most people leave after the third quarter. Though they ultimately succeeded, the university struggled to get an FM deal for their radio broadcasts and coaches shows. There’s an argument to be made that we don’t have the best fans in the world, but I just don’t see how bringing in schools that no one identifies with in any way is going to either service the existing fan or bring new fans.
The problem is that in most cases, your largest fan base tends to be in the market that your school is in. That is a combination of alumni and local bandwagon fans. Exceptions are “national” schools like ND, the service academies, and the huge state schools to some degree. That’s why I also think markets will continue to dominate. Delivery methods will continue to fragment, but not necessarily the market for the product itself. Does that make sense?
I do agree with your point about moving into markets for the sake of just trying to get bigger markets. That’s another reason I like UCF as an add. There will be a natural rivalry built with USF, and there are probably a lot of BE fans in Florida. Don’t know if you know, but Florida is the #2 state with Pitt alumni, well behind PA of course and we’re spread all over, but I’m betting it’s that way for many other BE schools too.