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March 9, 2010

You remember that bowl game planned for Yankee Stadium in December? It has a name. Please welcome the New Era Pinstripe Bowl.

The New Era Pinstripe Bowl will be held on Dec. 30, 2010, and televised nationally by ESPN.

A press conference announcing the name will be held at 10 a.m. at Yankee Stadium. The name comes from the game’s four-year title sponsor, headwear and apparel manufacturer New Era Cap Company, Inc.

The bowl will match the third-place Big East team with the sixth-place Big 12 team, after the BCS teams from each conference are excluded from consideration. Both teams will stay in Manhattan, the Big East team at the Grand Hyatt and the Big 12 team at the Sheraton New York.

The bowl’s Web site, newerapinstripebowl.com, will be launched later today.

According to the press release I got sent:

There is a four-year agreement extending through 2013 for the Big East and Big 12 to participate in the New Era Pinstripe Bowl at Yankee Stadium. In future years beyond 2010, games will take place no earlier than Christmas Day and no later than New Year’s Day.

Will it last beyond that? I have no idea. Just as I have no idea if the Big East and Big 12 will be around in 4 years.





Question – is it the Big East 3rd place team or is it the 4th place team? The wording of their release is not clear. It would seem strange that a new bowl game would trump the Car Care Bowl, which the conference just re-upped this past year.

I have to admit, for all of the talk out of Providence about how the league was in a better position during this last round of negotiations than the previous round, I find the bowl lineup wholly underwhelming.

Comment by Pantherman13 03.09.10 @ 11:21 am

Wow, I wonder what the weather will be in the Bronx on New Years Eve; in the 20’s or 30’s??

I’m not sure if it will last, but you never know!

Comment by Yogi 03.09.10 @ 11:52 am

Correction not New Years Eve, New Years Eve Eve

Comment by Yogi 03.09.10 @ 11:53 am

This is awesome! I just wish it was against the 4th or 5th Big 12 team.

20’s in the Bronx might stink, but after Chrismas in NYC is INCREDIBLE! My wife will be so happy shopping. Hell the years Pitt goes to this bowl I won’t even shop for a Gift.

Comment by Freebird 03.09.10 @ 1:06 pm

i would rather be in NYC vs. memphis or kentucky.

Comment by Omar 03.09.10 @ 1:10 pm

Pantherman13: I agree that it’s not the most exciting lineup. Would sure like to have another New Year’s Day game in there. But after getting psyched about going to the Gator Bowl – it’s close to home and the wife loves staying in St. Augustine – only to get hosed by them several times, I’ll take the New Year’s tradeoff for a stable relationship with the Champs Sports Bowl. There’s more for Pitt fans to do in Orlando and it’s usually warmer than Jacksonville that time of year.

I see Freebird’s and Omar’s points about the new bowl. NYC is an awesome place to visit between Christmas and New Year’s Eve. But it will be frigid. More like going to a Steelers playoff game than a bowl game.

That said, let’s just tell Wanny to make sure we dominate the conference, so we always go to a good bowl. 🙂

Comment by TampaT 03.09.10 @ 1:36 pm

Freebird and Omar…I agree 100%. I love this game. My wife will love this game (shopping); my daughter will love this game (American Girl Doll store). I might actually get to go to a bowl game without spending my child’s college fund! In my humble opinion, football in 80 degree temperature sucks! I’ll take a good cold weather game in a great city like Pittsburgh or New York any day.

Comment by HbgFrank 03.09.10 @ 1:40 pm

What? You mean it’s not the Dial 777-7777 Car Service Bowl?!?!?…Sorry, inside joke for NYers…I’ll pass on 20 deg. in the Bronx for a 3rd or 4th tier bowl, but it’s a good idea since the city is so great that time of year and the cache of Yankee Stadium is pretty significant attraction for TV viewers and sponsors- not to mention the teams and their families.

On another topic from another thread- next year’s basketball line-up, I thought over things hard today:

From the outset, the starting five will be 5-McGee, 4- Robinson, 3-Wanny, 2- Gibbs, 1- Woodall. I think the 4 is Robinson’s to lose. The formula of starting Robinson and bringing Gilbert off the bench, sometimes to the extent of 30+ minutes per game, has been successful. Dixon doesn’t seem to have a problem bringing a senior off the bench a la Keith Benjiman. Brown is obviously a more significant contributor for this team, but Dixon has said in the past he’s not hung up on who starts. The primary beneficiary of Jermaine Dixon’s minutes will likely be Lamar Patterson, who can move into the 3 and slide Wanamaker to the 2 with Gibbs at point. Patterson, I think, is the next Wanamaker in his style and overall contributions.

Taylor will continue to share time with Gary and, unless he can push himself on a more aggressive improvement trajectory than Gary, will not start. It won’t be until his junior year that he sees anytime at the 4 position. Even then, Robison will still be in the program and have started for two years, so Taylor would have to surpass Robinson to start over him. By that time, with McGee gone, Dante will be the most experienced center on the team, so I don’t think it is wholly unreasonable to foresee Taylor not starting at the 4 until his senior year. Hopefully by that time, Richardson and/or Zanna have developed as post players. Two years from now, with only Robinson and no Gilbert Brown to play 4, there may be spells when Rich/Zanna is playing 5 and Dante is moved to the 4 as Robinson goes to the bench.

In the back court, it will be interesting to see if Epps or Wright can displace anyone, but if they do, it may be because of lack of development (or regression) by Woodall the way Fields moved in on Benjiman’s time. Still, if those new guys can all progressively develop and contribute, it would be nice to have a solid 4-guard Big East backcourt for a couple of years. Perhaps there’s an outside chance that Epps or Wright is a star right off the bat. In that case, Woodall and Patterson would see less time. But Woodall will be in his 3rd year in the program and hopefully have overcome his “issues” earlier this year. And Patterson is closer to being more physically ready for BE play. So it will be tough to dislodge either unless someone can REALLY shoot or CREATE shots on their own or play defense at the level of Jermaine Dixon. Those two guards will most likely play support roles early in their career otherwise. If JJ Moore comes in with Epps and Wright, one of them will redshirt. I think Miller will be asked to move on. This is how I’m seeing things….Now, anyone want to buy these damn second round BE tourney tickets off me?

Comment by SilverPanther in NYC 03.09.10 @ 1:51 pm

I was wondering what kind of payout there will be.

Comment by joel 03.09.10 @ 1:55 pm

HbgFrank: Between your wife and daughter shopping and NYC being about 2x as pricey as Orlando, that college fund may be in danger anyway. Sure you want to trade Mickey for The Donald? It would also be trading the #2 finish in the conference for a #3 finish. Of course, we’re going to finish #1 anyway so it’s all a moot point.

Comment by TampaT 03.09.10 @ 2:02 pm

On another basketball note: During the break on ESPN between games in the BET, Jay Williams was hammering Doug Gottlieb for taking his typical anti-Big East stance. I thought Jay was going to punch him. Wish he would have. Gottlieb is a tool.

Comment by TampaT 03.09.10 @ 2:23 pm

Orlando is awful if you do not have children. I guess I am one of the few people left in the United States that doesn’t seem to mind the winter. People seem to think that warm weather is everything. Last time I checked, Boston, DC, Chicago, NYC, Philly, etc. were pretty awesome places to live and visit and they are all cold. Warm weather is the only thing a lot of these newer, southern cities that aren’t by water have to offer. The beach is great, but it also has drawbacks. Hurricanes anyone? Warm weather fanatics need to understand that their is something amazingly refreshing about watching the seasons change. It is energizing.

Comment by Omar 03.09.10 @ 2:44 pm

Omar,

Try a warm southern climate, its great!

I lived in Pittsburgh/Northeast for 40 years.

High taxes and cold weather, I heard Pittsburgh had 40 inches of snow in February!

Enjoy!

You’ll find some southern cities a paradise!

Enjoy the Bronx!

Comment by Yogay 03.09.10 @ 3:01 pm

My point was that a trip to NYC can be as expensive if not more expensive than a trip to Orlando, and more importantly that it meant a lower finish in the conference.

It wasn’t a statement that my life is better than yours. I think Pittsburgh is an awesome city as are the others you mention. My whole family is still in the ‘Burgh and I visit as often as I can.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, the original purpose of the bowl games – and having them in warm weather cities – was to reward the teams first and foremost for their performances during the season. But, would I take NYC over Birmingham or Charlotte? Hell yeah.

Comment by TampaT 03.09.10 @ 3:03 pm

High taxes and dirty, dog-pissy 3-week old snow drifts can definitely be a bummer here in NYC. But we eat better than other cities, so that makes up for a lot!

Comment by SilverPanther in NYC 03.09.10 @ 3:18 pm

Well, not all cities…

Comment by Greg in New Orleans 03.09.10 @ 3:33 pm

eating better that is.

Comment by Greg in New Orleans 03.09.10 @ 3:34 pm

Have to agree with you, Greg. I garontee! LOL

Comment by TampaT 03.09.10 @ 3:39 pm

Well, in terms of the whole package, for sure, I would rather eat in NO on the eve of the Sugar Bowl.

Comment by SilverPanther in NYC 03.09.10 @ 4:08 pm

Wow, UConn is getting run off the court by St. Johns. Something is definitely not right up in Storrs…that team just has too much talent to be finishing up like this.

Comment by Pantherman13 03.09.10 @ 4:15 pm

I’m not trying to offend anyone that lives in a warm weather city. My point is that there is a lot more to making a city great besides the weather. I don’t like shoveling 3 feet of snow, but it was fun when it was snowing. The Saturday after the first snow dump was really fun. Shadyside had no cars on the streets. People were all over the street drinking and having fun. It was actually a really cool scene. Now Tuesday when we got another 2 feet was not cool.

Warm weather is great, but you’ll never convince me that a bowl in some crap city in the great plains or SEC country is better than NYC. Yes it will be cold (NYC is in the mid-30s in late December so not frigid), but NYC has so great day time activities and outstanding night life. The game is just a good excuse to get up there in December.

Comment by Omar 03.09.10 @ 4:42 pm

New York in late December!

What a treat!

I’ll take the Papa John’s Bowl in Birmingham, it will be at least 50 degrees and a hotel room won’t cost me $300, plus southern women are a bit more friendly.

Comment by The Oakland Jew 03.09.10 @ 5:05 pm

The only drawback about a NYC game in December: Pitt would have ended up 3rd. Accordingly, I would have lost my enthusiasm to see the Panthers play.
Little secrets not widely known outside of NYC: People go outside in cold weather (after the streets are plowed of snow). Coats and hoods do a lot to temper the weather. NYC is a great city. At Christmas time, however, bring your walking shoes if you are going to mid-town. You will become very frustrated if you try to drive. It ain’t a good idea.

Comment by BigGuy 03.09.10 @ 5:08 pm

Yeah Birmingham, Alabama. They love Jews there. Hope the cheap hotel room has a deadbolt.

Comment by SilverPanther in NYC in Pittsburgh 03.09.10 @ 6:04 pm

Agree, we’ll drop a lot of money in NYC…but hell, I just spent $550 to take my wife and daughter to the Pitt/Rutgers BB game and there was no shopping involved!…Like many of you have said above, if you have to be in a 3rd tier bowl, I’ll take NYC over Charlotte, Birmingham, Memphis, etc. So, TampaT I do agree that if playing in a warm weather city means we are 1 or 2 in the Big East, I’ll take the warm weather any day. But if we finish 3rd, NYC is a damn fun place to visit.

Comment by HbgFrank 03.09.10 @ 8:11 pm

Right there with you, Hbg Frank.

Comment by TampaT 03.09.10 @ 8:36 pm

Boeheim BE COY. Well deserved.

Comment by TMGPanther 03.09.10 @ 8:39 pm

silver:

hahaha.

Comment by omar 03.09.10 @ 8:57 pm

Completely offtopic…

Went to the Cavs/Spurs game last night with a buddy of mine (Pitt guy) to watch our Big Fella versus LBJ & the other Big Fella. Unfortunately, Shaq is out and LBJ sat out for precautionary health purposes. Dejuan did not start, and saw limited minutes for the Spurs (O points, 4 rebounds, 3 fouls). For the most part, Blair was a nonfactor and could never get into a groove. Strangely enough, Dejuan had been on quite a tear in recent games…and even started in many of those games. But for some reason, he was just off. BTW the Cavs ended up winning a close one. Manu was huge for Spurs with nearly 40 points. Jamison, West, and Mo Williams led the Cavs.

On a pleasant note, my friend and I walked down near the court to eye the Spurs warmup and get a closeup look at the Q and of Blair. While down there, we ran into Dejuan’s parents. WHat a wonderful couple! They took time to chat with us and share stories about Dejaun and Pitt. Truly proud parents, and the spark in their eyes was priceless as they watched Dejaun warm up with the likes of Duncan & Co.

Comment by Pauly P 03.10.10 @ 12:33 am

You’re right Big Guy. Why the hell is everyone talking about how great it’s going to be to go “to NYC in December”? People are welcome to go there whenever they want but, in this instance, they are referring to it because Pitt finished THIRD in the conference. Do you guys have some crystal ball that lets you see into the future? If so please let me know what the first day of the double-dip recession we are about to enter will be.

Comment by Bobby 03.10.10 @ 7:49 am

Next Tuesday.

Comment by Jeff 03.10.10 @ 9:07 am

Bobby: I think the point is that IF Pitt finishes 3rd in any of the next 4 years, NYC is a better place to play than Memphis, Birmingham or Charlotte. Don’t think anyone wants or predicts a 3rd place finish.

Jeff: Thanks for the tip. I’m going to sell my stocks and buy gold and a gun before the week ends. 🙂

Comment by TampaT 03.10.10 @ 9:22 am

Very interesting and amusing subject. I read with great pleasure.

Comment by generic drugs pharmacy 03.10.10 @ 9:53 am

IF Pitt finishes third in the conference in any of the next four years I can’t say that watching (and paying) to see them play another team in similar straits is worth the price of admission. But, since we do visit NYC quite often between the holidays, I can attest to the fact that it is a nice place to be at that time of the year – assuming you like crowds.

TampaT, you mean you live in Florida and don’t already own a gun?

Comment by Bobby 03.10.10 @ 9:53 am

Good one, Bobby. Fortunately, in the 32 years I’ve lived in Tampa, I haven’t had any reason to buy one – knock on wood. Might have to do with still having that Pittsburgh attitude of “go ahead and dare me to kick your ass.” But, I’m getting old so it may be time. LOL

If I do buy one, I may use it to shoot the Cialis-generic-drug spammer that keeps posting here. At least he finds us entertaining.

Comment by TampaT 03.10.10 @ 10:50 am

Off topic…Yesterday, I caught the tale end of the local sports report (WHTM 27) here in Harrisburg, PA, and they were reporting on the ND AD stating that with the “Big 10 and PAC 10” considering expansion, they (ND) may be forced to join a conference for scheduling purposes. I’m not sure if the ND AD meant joining one of those conferences, or some other conference (like, oh say, the Big East). If this is true, and ND does not want to join the Big 10 or Pac 10, then the Big East needs to get proactive now. I would gladly trade RU to the Big 10 for ND and stay as we are in FB or BB; or maybe if ND wanted to join the Big East, we could convince PSU, BC, Navy and Maryland to come in with them and go 12 teams, all sports. I think ND would be more inclined to want to join the league as it is now because (if one of the BE schools leaves for the Big 10), that would still give ND 5 games a year to schedule out of conference.

Comment by HbgFrank 03.10.10 @ 1:32 pm

If Pitt is 3rd I will just buy my bowl ticket and put it in the stack of tickets and watch it on TV. I usually price the trip and decide it’s not worth going or there is no destination.

Now it is a destination in NYC for me. Just like I’d rather go to Toronto than Charlotte. I wish Charleston should build a stadium and host a bowl. There is much more to offer than Memphis or Charlotte or Birmingham.

Milledgeville looks pretty fun too.

Comment by Freebird 03.10.10 @ 1:45 pm

“the ND AD stating that with the “Big 10 and PAC 10? considering expansion, they (ND) may be forced to join a conference for scheduling purposes. ”

Ah, that makes zero sense. All teams in conferences have 4 or 5 non-conference games. I think that 90%-100% of the teams would make room on their schedules to play ND along with the fans and notoriety that it brings. Why would ND want to split its TV contract and Bowl proceeds with conference members? Obviously, I missing something. Please explain.

Comment by BigGuy 03.10.10 @ 3:09 pm

On the BET,
Where do non-students get tickets for this ?
The prices are over inflated for 400 level seats on stubhub.

Any other sources to get tickets from ?

Comment by Snala the Panther 03.10.10 @ 3:52 pm

just go buy from a fan outside before the games (or after their team loses). Tix prices get cheap outside MSG especially after UCONN or Cuse loses. People want to dump the tix and they are easy to get. Just watch out for fakes. Probably safer buying from an actual fan than a scalper.

Comment by PITTapotamus 03.10.10 @ 4:21 pm

“Why would ND want to split its TV contract and Bowl proceeds with conference members? Obviously, I missing something. Please explain.”

My understanding is that the per-team revenues from the Big 10 Network are approaching ND’s own $9M deal with NBC. It could very well make financial sense for ND. Whether they’re willing to give up being “special” is another question, but a Big 10 offer won’t be so easy to dismiss this time around.

Comment by maguro 03.10.10 @ 4:53 pm

“My understanding is that the per-team revenues from the Big 10 Network are approaching ND’s own $9M deal with NBC. ”

Maguro, I have no facts to dispute your comments; however to me it is surprising. The Big 10 is regional while ND is national. I suspect that an ND-USC game on national TV would have a larger TV audience than the collective audience of 5 or 6 Big 10 games. One thing I have to believe, however: besides being able to recruit good athletes, ND can also recruit good accountants.

Comment by BigGuy 03.10.10 @ 5:16 pm

Big Guy – I am not saying that B10 Net makes $9M per team. But the difference is probably not as much as you might think. I have no doubt that ND’s accountants are crunching the numbers this very minute.

Comment by maguro 03.10.10 @ 5:28 pm

BG, the expansions create conference title games. That is one more tough win inside of your conference to get to the BCS Championship game. I’m not saying Michigan or USC will not want to play ND anymore, but they may not want to do it every year. First they will have to win their divsion in conference, then they will have to win their conference championship game, and beat ND in the same year to get to the BCS championship game. Let’s face it, if Kelly turns ND around, that’s a tall order even for USC or Michigan. Also, the PAC 10 already plays a full schedule in football (i.e. each team plays the other nine teams every year). In a normal year, that leaves only 3 non-con games. If the Big 10 expands to 12 teams, they may very well move to 9 conference games per year as well. That leaves less games for ND to fill.

Comment by HbgFrank 03.10.10 @ 5:56 pm

Also, “super conferences” could be looming. The Big 10, Pac 10 and others could expand to 14 or 16 teams. That could lead to less games in other conferences for ND to choose from. Frankly, if USC knows it has a potential league championship game to play in the first week of December, do they really want to play ND in the last week or two of November every year. If every leage has a championship game, who wants to play ND every year in November. It makes it harder for ND to schedule quality games later in the season.

Comment by HbgFrank 03.10.10 @ 6:14 pm

Quinnipac 25, Robert Morris 23 at the half.

Comment by alcofan 03.10.10 @ 7:49 pm

Robert Morris in the tournment. Congradulations Mike Rice

Comment by alcofan 03.10.10 @ 9:11 pm

“It makes it harder for ND to schedule quality games later in the season.”

HbgFrank, you usually think these things thru more deeply than I do, but it seems to me that schools (e.g. Pitt) knocks on ND’s door hat-in-hand rather than the reverse. I have a difficult time visualizing USC telling ND “thanks but no thanks” just as much as Pitt telling ND “Given the choice to play you or Cincinnati in December, we choose Cincinnati.” Somehow Pitt would squeeze Cincy in during the month of August if the only date open with ND was in December. Obviously, my opinion only.

Comment by BigGuy 03.10.10 @ 11:29 pm

How about the Big East gives ND a sweetheart deal.

ND joins the BE. ND/BE renegotiate a TV contract with NBC whereby all of ND’s games are on the network (instead of just its home games). Essentially, ND could keep its historical home game NBC revenues and the BE would garner the revenue when ND was not at home.

This would dramatically help the BE as it would essentially have its network.

Comment by Jester 03.11.10 @ 9:05 am

BigGuy – my understanding is that the Big Ten per team payouts already exceed the $9 million that Notre Dame gets from its NBC contract. Those payouts are more than just the Big Ten Network, but also the bowl tie-ins and other (probably smaller) revenue sources that are shared. I’ll try to find the links as to where I have read this.

Comment by Pantherman13 03.11.10 @ 10:08 am

BigGuy: You make a good point about the aura of playing ND and most schools who need to pad their pocketbook, and rep for BCS purposes, would jump at the chance to play them.

I think the “super conference” point that HbgFrank is making is that top schools in those conferences may not be able to afford to play ND as a non-con team, because a loss could knock them out of BCS championship contention (see Pitt/Penn State). Under Weiss that wasn’t an issue :-), but if Kelly gets them competitive again, it becomes one. That would leave ND with middle teams in the “super conferences” instead of the top teams. It could happen, but probably later than sooner, so I don’t see ND doing anything before the Big 1x expansion.

Interesting suggestion, Jester. What other programming does NBC have on a Saturday anyway? The only pitfall is existing contracts with other networks, particularly the Big East and ESPN. Renegotiating those could be expensive and weaken the BE’s relationship with ESPN further. ESPN/ABC is getting stronger ties with the Big Ten and now the SEC, so the BE has to tread lightly there.

Comment by TampaT 03.11.10 @ 10:31 am

Why are these bowls always “Big East 3rd place team vs. Big 12/ACC/SEC/WAC/MAC/whatever’s 928392839823rd place team??

Comment by Jimbo Covert's my Dad 03.11.10 @ 11:27 am

BG, I agree with your basic premise…ND is a huge draw for every school. Pitt, Cincy, Syracuse, etc. would sell out their own mothers for a long term deal with ND, no matter what time of year. I think what ND fears is a November scheulde that inlcudes Pitt, Navy, Bowling Green, and UCONN, while other schools are playing USC, Michigan, Alabama and Texas in conference during November. This is so because those high profile schools, with a league championship game to play in the first week of Dec, will not want to play ND late in the season. All of them will welcome ND in September, but there are just so many dates available for ND to schedule early in the season. The BCS pays out about $17M per school. The AD’s are going to do every thing they can to increase their shot at that pie, and preserving ND’s independence is not going to be on their agenda. The same is true if ND were to join the Big 10, then they would not want to play USC in November any more. They would be gunning for their own league championship and BCS bid.

Comment by HbgFrank 03.11.10 @ 11:47 am

Right, HbgFrank. Losing to ND in Sept. gives a school time to recover its BCS positioning through a tough “super conference” schedule. Super conferences also decrease the likelyhood of teams going undefeated (a la BE basketball) so it comes down to late season and conference championship performance. Playing ND in Nov. and potentially losing knocks the school out of BCS championship contention, not to mention having to get ready for a late tough game instead of a “rest” game – Florida playing Florida International and Alabama playing Chattanooga on Nov. 21 last year as examples.

Comment by TampaT 03.11.10 @ 12:26 pm

“I think what ND fears is a November scheulde that inlcudes Pitt, Navy, Bowling Green, and UCONN, while other schools are playing USC, Michigan, Alabama and Texas in conference during November. ”

HbgFrank, my guess is that ND sells out home or away in November whether they play USC , UConn or Bowling Green. As to the BSC Championship, if ND and another team are both undefeated, my guess is that the powers to be may look at the respective schedules. If one team has a loss against, say, Ohio State while ND is undefeated against patsies, undefeated ND gets the bid. Alabama and a number of southern schools figured out the formula decades ago. Their schedules always included several patsies. They only had to defeat a few prominent schools for top national ranking. Currently, in my judgment, ND has the toughest schedule of any university. They can afford to weaken their schedule. Every conference has about 4 or 5 weak sisters that the Florida’s and Ohio State’s feast upon. If ND weakens their schedule a bit (or a lot), they will still be the prize because they are ND.

Comment by BigGuy 03.11.10 @ 12:51 pm

BigGuy:

An undefeated ND playing a weak schedule at season’s end my not hurt them in the human polls, but it could kill them in the computer polls (1/3 of the BCS rank) rankinig them even against a one loss super conference team or teams (see Utah, TCU, Boise St.) Not saying that ND doesn’t carry more aura than those schools, but the computers don’t rank aura.

Plus, ND would run the risk of becoming irrelevant, like Jo Pa says of the Big Ten, if while they’re playing lesser schools or done for the season, super conference powers are playing for their conference championships. That could even hurt them in the human polls at the end.

Of course, this is all speculative and would take a few years of super conferences being in place to realize, but it obviously has the ND AD thinking.

Comment by TampaT 03.11.10 @ 1:15 pm

fast typing + iPhone = sorry for the typos

Comment by TampaT 03.11.10 @ 1:19 pm

“it obviously has the ND AD thinking.”

I can’t disagree with that.

Comment by BigGuy 03.11.10 @ 1:36 pm

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