I really, really, really don’t look forward to 18+ months of mindless speculation over Big 11 expansion. The amusing thing is that it doesn’t seem my fellow bloggers from Rutgers or Syracuse are that enthusiastic about the matter either.
I’m a cynic and money always trumps all. And no doubt the money of being part of the Big 11 would be too great for any to turn down.
That said, I like the Big East. Yes, it is not a powerhouse football conference, but it is a better fit for Pitt. That said, if the Big East wants to survive it has to act. Sean at Troy Nunes is right, the Big East has to “Grow a F***ing Pair.” They have to stop acting like a b-ball conference and the whole Providence thing is over.
My feelings on this are much the same as when it went down in 2003. If the Big East is to make it and Pitt be a part of it, then the Big East needs to stop the hybrid crap and commit to being a real frickin’ conference. That means jettisoning the b-ball only schools and get to the magic number of 12 teams that compete in the major sports.
Honestly, I was saving this post until the spring when speculation is easier and there are less interesting things — like a bowl game and basketball games. Then the Big 11 decided it needed more attention.
So here it is.
First, there is no magic bullet. Admit that there is no frickin’ way the Big East is going to be able to raid other BCS conferences for teams. It is about money and the other BCS conferences make and have more than the Big East. Leaving the ACC by BC and/or Maryland is not going to happen. Grumbling alumni in Boston won’t have BC jumping yet again. Just as Penn State isn’t leaving the Big 11. It’s all about the money.
Second, ignore the independents. Please. Notre Dame is not going to make the full commitment. They just aren’t. Pride and money.
Army and Navy are respectable names, but they are not BCS conference teams. Besides their own desire to play a schedule of their choosing — they don’t compete in other major sports. They don’t have (and nor should they be committing) the resources to a full athletic department budget of a major conference program. So, despite the historic cache and respect for being service academies, they aren’t going to be a part of this.
Third, admit that like after the ACC raid, it will have to be retooling with teams with potential and willingness to make the commitment. They will not make the conference better right away.
Fourth, there has to be some geographic logic and natural rivalries. That means Southern Miss and Tulsa are not in the mix.
Philly. Villanova has to make the leap to D-1A. They need to follow the UConn model. They have been successfull at 1AA, function in a major media market and are smack in the Big East footprint — natural rivalries with Pitt in state and Rutgers right next door. If they aren’t willing, then maybe default to Temple as long as the school is willing to continue to make a full commitment.
Central Florida. Okay, this is a no-brainer. USF may not like the idea of helping them, but they are needed. They have made the commitment to an on-campus stadium. They are in a still growing market (Orlando). They offer USF the natural rival, geographic proximity, and further solidifies the Big East in Florida.
East Carolina. Another, mostly no-brainer. They have a very good fanbase and will be immediately competitive in football. Basketball still needs a lot of work, but they have shown a willingness to make a financial commitment to upgrade on all fronts.
Okay, these are predictable. Right? These have been the ones generally mentioned when it comes to Big East expansion. That means the fourth team is going to be Memphis.
Wrong.
Forget the overall shadiness of Memphis’ athletic programs. Forget that outside of basketball (and their dance team) that they bring little to a conference. Their geographic isolation from all other programs in the Big East (Louisville is closest and they are nearly 400 miles away) without offering the fertile recruiting of Florida is a real problem. As is further spreading the conference west. They are a choice of last resort.
Now for the 4th team.
Charlotte. You read right. The school formerly called UNC-Charlotte. The University of Charlotte 49ers are bringing back football by 2013. Their ill-fated foray into the A-10 — that has seen the loss of rivalries (geographically isolated with Richmond their closest conference foe) and hurt their basketball program — has them working to expand their athletic department. They provide a natural instate rivalry with ECU and exist in another growing market along the East Coast.
It’s not ideal. And it sure makes clear why, if the Big 11 reaches its inevitable conclusion of expansion and offers Pitt, Syracuse or Rutgers, they will take it.
1) tell ND to join or leave. The B10 has already told ND that they would accept ND as an all or none basis. Maybe this will force their hand to either join the BE or B10 … but in either case, I would be fine with that. Even if ND would join the MAC, ACC or CUSA as a non-FB member, it still wouldn’t bother me.
2) The BE members sign an agreement, and publicly announce that while they consider the B10 to be a model conference and would be flattered to be considered, no BE member will entertain an offer … even if that entails upping the buyout ante. At least,this would ensure long-term viability of the FB conference,and not leave 7 of the 8 members hanging on a limb. A public announcement may also dissuade the B10 from pushing the envelope since they appear to be image conscious.
In no particular order
North:
1.) UConn
2.) Syracuse
3.) Rutgers
4.) Pitt
Possible Expansion Schools (offer the following schools the opportunity to apply and see where what takes place…)
5.) Buffalo / Boston College / Notre Dame
6.) Temple / Villanova / Penn State….you pick
South:
1.) West Virginia
2.) Cincinnati
3.) Lousiville
4.) South Florida
Possible Expansion Schools
5.) Central Florida / Kentucky
6.) Maryland / Florida State (they wanted in 10 years ago, why not now?) / …you pick
The Point is to grow or in the alternative continue to struggle. Furthermoe, why should the Big East strive for the low hanging fruit…go for greatness.
It’s just like hitting on the prettiest girl in the bar, why, because traditionally she isn’t the one anyone approaches, men traditionally think a hottie is out of their league. If you get a number from a hottie it is always better than scoring with an ugly chick…so I say call on the Big Boys the worst that could happen is that they say no!
BE for a good reason, be done with it.
Kurt, you have a good sense of humor.
I know neither team draws but one team is already functioning at the 1-A level w/o anyone attending while the other is doing it at the 1-AA level. The increased cost for Nova to make that jump when the football team would:
a) Go from being a power to a loser
b) Probably not see a huge increase in attendence.
Makes Nova a bigger risk than Temple. Temple is a much better bet to contribute to Big East football than Nova.
Unless Notre Dame or Mizzou joins, the Big East is getting raided again one way or another. I also know that, regardless of what you think about their new conference or them, BC, Miami, and VaTech didn’t have to worry about being in a non-BCS conference when they went to the ACC. But the teams left in the Big East did.
Sometimes, if it’s inevitable that a ships going dowm, you need to jump the hell off. It may not be viewed as honorable or whatever, but the honorable people are dead while you’re still alive.
In any case, I think it’s pretty likely that they study it for 18 months and decide not to invite anyone because the team they really want – ND – just isn’t interested in what the B10 is offering.
Jamie Dixon was alos interviewed and wondered as to why Pitt would leave ‘the best conference in the history of college basketball.’ He also cited that the bowl tie-ins provide the BE with the largest percentage of teams participating than any other league … not a bad spin, if true, but of course not much $$.
A consideration not mentioned … would Dixon leave if Pitt joined the B10 .. a real possibility.
If we moved, a casualty could be losing the face of our hoops program.
HTscriptP
I would like the league to get rid of some of the non-football schools, but are we really ready to part with St. John’s, Seton Hall, Georgetown, or Providence? I’d rather not see those schools go. So if we can get to twelve teams in football and keep sixteen in basketball I’d be happy.
If we add four of the teams mentioned (say Marshall, Temple, East Carolina, and Charlotte just for the sake of argument) We would have to jettison four in basketball. Three come easily to mind: DePaul, Marquette, and Notre Dame. Those three don’t belong in any league with “East” in the title. But then we’d have to part with one of the four schools I don’t want to. I guess Providence would be my first choice, but I’d hate to do it to them.
I think the answer might be to find ONE and only one football-only member. I don’t know if such a team even exists though. That’s where I think Navy might be a good fit. If we added Marshall, Temple, and East Carolina for both, added Navy for football only, and dumped DePaul, Marquette, and Notre Dame I think we’d have a solid (and money-making) league in both sports within 3-5 years.
Please note that the BE FB conference was borne out of necessity (Chas, correct me if I’m wrong) after PSU joined the B10 … the writing was on the wall that FB members needed the security of a league, thus the acceptance of WVU, VT and Miami into the league. Miami had little to gain in FB but much to gain in BB and most of its other sports (not baseball) by joining an all-sports league.
Currently, there are 8 FB playing members and 8 non-FB members, and should a team exit for the B10, then a FB member would be a replacement. I believe the natural progression is to split up the BE into these two configurations.
The presidents and ad’s at the non football schools could care less.
OK cash is king and this will never happen but the argument should be made to:
Notre Dame, the reason your football program has not been competitive is because you are not in a conference, kids want to play in a conference. It is time to make the choice, Big East, Big Ten or ACC. Big East, get some balls and make them an ultimatum.
Penn State, you are an eastern school. The Big Ten has always been and will always be the big two and the little eight.Your recruiting has suffered and you are an afterthought in the conference. You do have a great women’s volleyball team though. You could be the big dog again.
Boston College, Come on, do you think those southerners respect you. You are really irrelevant nationally. UConn is going to get all the good players eventually. Besides the fix is in for Carolina and Duke. Come back to where your rivals are.
Maryland, this is the hardest sell. They love the ACC. But it makes sense. They border PA and WV could drive to games. How about Georgetown vs. Maryland every year. You would be more competitive in football and as I said about the fix. The Big East is competitive from top to bottom and you would fit right in. Trips to NYC must be more appealing than tobacco road.
Regarding the money, this football conference would be the most valuable to TV, better demographics. The Bowls would be salivating. Basketball would still be the best and regionally it makes the most sense.
Anyway, back to reality. If Missouri or ND do not go to the Big Ten. Big East Football is through. I hate the Big Two and the little nine.
Pitt Administration members will be earning their pay over these next months. Make no mistake that if conference movement transpires, this will be another water shed moment in Pitt history.
Hail to Pitt
I generally agree with your assessment, but one other factor that Pitt has to consider is what happens if they make this push but are ultimately rebuffed. I can imagine a scenario where the Big Ten decides to put off a decision on expansion for another 5 years. If Pitt makes this push, but ultimately is rejected, their position in the Big East will be damaged. I’m not saying it isn’t worth the risk, or shouldn’t be pursued, just that they need to account for this result as well. Of course, it may be that no matter what happens over the next 18 months, the Big East will be irreparably damaged, but we don’t know that yet.
Agreed…and thus the need for serious success/failure mode analysis….What happens if Pitt stands put…What happens if Pitt promotes. Should they be publicly open about their desires or use other means of communication. Huge decisions with major complications. That is why worrying about a coaches comments in the PG or wringing of hands about one university segment vs. another is small vision in my opinion.
You are right. The BE is going to change one way or the other and no one knows the results…Interesting to watch, that’s for sure!
Hail to Pitt
The talk of having a BB conference made up of only the football members of the league, in my judgment, is silly. All those who are in favor of Pitt not playing Georgetown or Villanova or ND or Marquette or even St. Johns raise your hand. With regard to dropping any BB teams. “Hey UConn, we’re dropping your traditional rival Providence because Pitt doesn’t want them in the league. Rutgers, we know that Seton Hall is 20 miles up the road, St. Johns and the Garden are right across the river and Villanova is about 2-hours down the pike, but, sorry, they don’t play football. We know that Georgetown is a big financial draw, but they don’t play big time football. For you Pitt alumni living in the NJC area, Pitt ain’t gonna come to Seton Hall or to St. Johns any more. ND, we will make an exception and keep you in the BB league, but we have to get rid of Marquette and DePaul.”
Does anyone want to make this presentation at the league meeting?
link to rushthecourt.net
big-ten-expansion/
There are top 50 recruits in Ohio and Michigan… and I think we can seriously compete with the OSU and MSU for these recruits and get BETTER.
Losing NYC as a recruiting bed, IMHO, is way overratted.
Also, a top prospect is a top prospect. Period. And there are a lot in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana… A second tier prospect on the East COast does not trump a top tier prospect from the Midwest.
Pitt it IS, Pitt could say “No”. Should they? That is why we have Democrats and why we have Republicans: it makes life more interesting.
Temple’s attendance this year averaged a little over 17,000, 14,000 behind Cincy. So perhaps I should have written that 100% improvement still indicates much improvement needed. However, they are improving both on the field and by drawing fans. Here is the link for NCCA attendance:
link to web1.ncaa.org.
Reading through newspapers and blogs today it looks like the NYC market is really what the Big Ten wants. So once again Nordy will need to work hard to make the Big East Football Conference the best it can be if the raid occurs that many think will.
Check out BC’s attendance – 35,000 – not so hot for a big time ACC school. Plus the BC bloggers are not a happy group – complaining about tail-gating problems at the stadium, the lack of school spirit, disconnect with DeFilippo whom they say doesn’t listen, and the latest: BC band not going to Emerald Bowl. Maybe we are better off without them?
It almost sounds like you are describing Pitt! LOL
“…bloggers are not a happy group – complaining about tail-gating problems at the stadium, the lack of school spirit, disconnect with (Peterson) whom they say doesn’t listen (about the script P) …”
Today’s second place trailing by 5 with Ohio State as a national champion is Samuel Friedman. Other distinguishable marks in his bracket include a final four of Ohio State, Syracuse, West Virginia, and baylor, with the Hoopies advancing over Baylor. Mr. Friedman also has Texas over Kentucky, and Cornell to the Elite 8.
3rd place is Michael Meadows, who believes Kentucky will be cutting down the nets with a win over Georgetown(haha!!).
I am in 155th place, but it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.
Pulling up the rear is Kevin Corcoran. Man, I don’t even know where to start with your bracket. Texas to the elite 8, and Utah State, Richmond to the Sweet 16.
On a side note, it looks like we have a large contingency with WVU winning it all.
Here’s to you; Todd Gack, Rob Wittig, Kevin Gagliardi, Jacob Meyer, Josh Mohl, Peter Biggs, and Samuel Friedman(has them runner ups)
Today’s second place trailing by 5 with Ohio State as a national champion is Samuel Friedman. Other distinguishable marks in his bracket include a final four of Ohio State, Syracuse, West Virginia, and baylor, with the Hoopies advancing over Baylor. Mr. Friedman also has Texas over Kentucky, and Cornell to the Elite 8.
3rd place is Michael Meadows, who believes Kentucky will be cutting down the nets with a win over Georgetown(haha!!).
I am in 155th place, but it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.
Pulling up the rear is Kevin Corcoran. Man, I don’t even know where to start with your bracket. Texas to the elite 8, and Utah State, Richmond to the Sweet 16.
On a side note, it looks like we have a large contingency with WVU winning it all.
Here’s to you; Todd Gack, Rob Wittig, Kevin Gagliardi, Jacob Meyer, Josh Mohl, Peter Biggs, and Samuel Friedman(has them runner ups)
Today’s second place trailing by 5 with Ohio State as a national champion is Samuel Friedman. Other distinguishable marks in his bracket include a final four of Ohio State, Syracuse, West Virginia, and baylor, with the Hoopies advancing over Baylor. Mr. Friedman also has Texas over Kentucky, and Cornell to the Elite 8.
3rd place is Michael Meadows, who believes Kentucky will be cutting down the nets with a win over Georgetown(haha!!).
I am in 155th place, but it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.
Pulling up the rear is Kevin Corcoran. Man, I don’t even know where to start with your bracket. Texas to the elite 8, and Utah State, Richmond to the Sweet 16.
On a side note, it looks like we have a large contingency with WVU winning it all.
Here’s to you; Todd Gack, Rob Wittig, Kevin Gagliardi, Jacob Meyer, Josh Mohl, Peter Biggs, and Samuel Friedman(has them runner ups)
If we’re going to force a 1-AA team to go 1-A and join the Big East: UMass, Delaware and Richmond are your best three options in that order.